Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded March 8th, 2024. March 8th is also International Women's Day, a global day celebrating the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women. The day also marks a call to action for accelerating women's equality. My name is Jill James, chief Safety Officer at HSI. My guest today is Christina Roll. Christina is a Casualty Risk consultant with AXA XL, one of the world's largest insurance carriers. She has two degrees in safety sciences, is a certified safety professional and a certified industrial hygienist, and has over two decades of experience as a safety professional. Her expertise is in workplace risk assessments, industrial hygiene, ergonomics and training. And while her goal is to ensure people stay safe while at work, her passion is for promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion within the safety profession and the insurance industry, and supporting the advancement of women everywhere. Christina joins us today from Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome to the show, Christina.

Christina Roll:

Thank you, Jill. It's awesome to be with you. Thank you so much.

Jill James:

We got to meet one another at NSCS conference in 2023, which was really fun. And I think it's super ironic that you and I are recording this on International Women's Day. And one of the things that we did at NSC when we met one another is you drug me over to a PPE booth where we looked at a bra that had been burnt. And I don't think I would've expected in the almost six years that I've been doing this podcast, we'd be talking about bras on the Accidental Safety Pro. But here we are. And here we are. There's a point to this story and for bras. So Christina, let's just get going on that right away because why did you do that that day that there was a point to it?

Christina Roll:

There was, and let's get that out of the way before we scare everybody off the podcast for the beginning. So yes, I dragged you over and I introduced you to the folks at sarafina. They are a company that was created and their whole goal is to have women's PPE, specifically undergarments for women that are fire rated, so that when you're working in hot work and anything would happen, you're protected and the goal. And if you think that through even further, right? A woman is doing hot work, they have the fire rated, coveralls, tops, gloves, whatever, but something goes down in the collar, something goes in through a button sleeve, whatever might be our brass and underwear are not fire rated. They shouldn't need to be on a regular basis on a day-to-day thing. But when you're doing that work, they need to be. And so yes, the example of a bra that was burned was the example of what happens when Hot SL or sparks or anything can get down in there and catch 'em on fire, and all of a sudden it is now burned to your skin and you're in a severe world of trouble. So their whole goal is to say, Hey, you need this for women who are doing this kind of work. You can't just protect them on the outside. Women have a unique need to be protected underneath their clothing as well.

Jill James:

And I was absolutely amazed that that was even a thing. You and I have talked before, you've been at this a couple of decades. This is my 30th year as a safety professional. And when I first started in my twenties and went to my first grain elevator, one of my mentors who was with me, we talked about undergarments that day. He knew that was a hazard for me. And he said, wear cotton, because there wasn't anything. There wasn't anything he knew that was a risk. And I'm like, what? Because of grain elevators are explosive areas they can be. And so he was protecting me if something were to go wrong that day. And now fast forward 30 years, we've got the right protection for us, which is fantastic.

Christina Roll:

Kudos to him for saying that. I want to shake his hand and say Thank you very much because

Jill James:

Oh yeah,

Christina Roll:

20 years ago, you're right. It wasn't even a thing that was discussed. I mean, we're having a hard time having it be discussed today of saying, Hey, women's PPE is a need. And oh, by the way, not just women's PPE, but women's PPE that fits, that is designed for a woman. So yeah, it's a thing.

Jill James:

Yeah, hats off to my former mentor and friend who's long past Richard, who helped me in so many ways with my career. But we want to hear about your career. I mean, we started off already pretty strong, Christina, but we do here at the Accidental Safety Pro. What's your origin story? How'd you get into all this?

Christina Roll:

So I had an amazing chemistry teacher in high school, and he would tell us stories about his time in the railroad industry and what he would be doing when there was a chemical spill or how he would help prevent chemical spills and all the things that he was doing. And I was fascinated like, that is amazing. I would love to do that. I want to keep people from hurting the environment and hurting people, chemicals from hurting people and hurting the environment. I'm going to save the tree, save the water, save the people that's going to be director of the EPA. That was my goal. I'm going to do this. And so I get to college and I sit down with my advisor and she goes, so what do you want to do with chemistry? And I said, I'm going to keep it from hurting people and hurting the environment. I said, don't put me in a lab because that's boring. Don't put me in front of, I can't teach. I can teach, but I don't want to be teaching kids chemistry. This is not my thing. This is what I want to do. She said, you need to go across the street and talk to the safety science people. I said, the safety, who people. She goes to go across the street to Johnsons Hall and go talk to them. Said, okay. So I did go across the street, walk in, I'm like, hi, I'm supposed to talk to you. This is what I want to do. They're like, cool, you're in the right place. So I get into safety 1 0 1, and I had this teacher and day one, and I'm sitting there thinking to myself, okay, hold up. There's a job that's going to pay me money to tell people that they need to wear hard hats and safety boots on a construction site and that they need to put here plugs in when that's a real job that people sign me up. I'm in. And I was all in from day one. And then I just grew and grew. And then I was in fire safety 1 0 1 and the professor was like, you should be a double major. And I said, you are crazy. I want to get out of here. One day. The man was right. Within a year I was a double major. And then I got What were your double majors? I kept chemistry, I was chemistry and safety, and I had a double major. Wonderful. And I through, I was in the last semester of my fourth year. Now, I knew I was going to have a fifth year because I did a semester abroad. And so that put me a year behind on the core classes. But I was in the fall semester of my fourth year and I was in biochem and I hated life and it was affecting my safety classes. I would lead biochem, so frustrated. I would walk into my safety class and my professor at the time is one of my biggest mentors and biggest fans, and I would be snappy with her and evil with her groove, and she would be like, what is wrong with you? And I'm like, I hate my life. And so one day we're in Biochem lab and they're like, you don't need to be here. Why are you here? And I'm like, financial aid. They're like, you're good with what you got going on. And I literally walked out of the lab, walked down the road, and I'm like, Hey, is this correct? They're like, yeah. And I dropped it that day, had enough for a minor in chemistry. I'm like, bye chem love, you got to go. Finished out my safety degree and jumped right in. And then as I went on with my degree too, and the more I learned, and then it was just clicking too that it had a personal reason. My dad was a heavy equipment operator for 30 plus years. So dump trucks, backhoes, high lifts, all the things, but he also, they would do excavations for manmade lakes and septic systems. And so there was one day he was inside this big pipe and he was doing something and he was not wearing respiratory protection. And at this day today, he has very bad short-term memory and no hearing almost in one ear because he did not have the right protection when he was working and doing his job. So I have a personal thing too, and it's funny, at the time he worked for my uncle and I walked into their shop and I'm like, uncle Bill, what you have you lived in this? He goes, get the out of my shop. Love you Uncle Bill, talk to you later. Just politely walked my butt out of the shop and he said in all the lovingly ways that he was. But yeah, that's just how I got going. And I've never looked back. I've been,

Jill James:

Yeah, what jobs?

Christina Roll:

Yeah, so my first one out of college was a consulting gig with a small consulting firm out of Western Pennsylvania. And through that I got connected to a Marine Corps program in northern Virginia. Met my now husband there. And so when I knew he was my guy, I'm like, yeah, I got to get to Virginia. So I leapt the consulting gig. Was lucky enough to make enough connections at that particular program office that I got a contractor job doing safety for the Marine Corps side of the project. Oh my gosh, okay. And I know talk about connections. And then from there, the Marine Corps program office hired me direct. So I got direct DOD employee supporting the Marine Corps. From there, I got onto Marine Corps based Quantico, and I was safety director for their training and education command for about three years. I was the first of many things. I was the first director ever hired. The Marines were doing that job. So I was the first civilian director hired. I was one of two women on the command and general staff. I was the only woman as a director of a major command in Marine Corps safety at that time. And I was also the youngest director of Marine Corps safety throughout the Marine Corps by probably five to 10 years. And by the way, the consulting job, the very first one, I was the first and only female consultant they ever hired.

Jill James:

And this is, I mean for everyone listening, this was not planned. It is International Women's Day when we're recording this. And none of this was planned. I just reached out. Well, I shouldn't say that. Emily, my wonderful producer, reached out to Christina after we met. Oh, y all met at NSC and Christina, you said? Yes, at apparently exactly the right time.

Christina Roll:

Ironically how this works, so did the Marine Corps thing for several years. Amazing job, loved everything about it. It was one of those jobs where you truly left at the end of the day and knew you did something good because Marines were going to be able to train safely and get through their training to do what they wanted to do, to do what the Marine Corps needed them, what our country needed them to do. And they were going to be able to do that because they got all of their training safely without getting hurt. So it was a very cool job. But then I was able to finally have my oldest daughter, and I'm like, yeah, mommyhood got to go. And so I did that for a few years. And then when she was ready for more than just staying home with mom, I went back into work, got another consulting gig on a different Marine Corps program, and then we moved to Michigan for my husband's job. He got a promotion and went to Michigan. And I'm like, okay, I have to work. I can't be at home. So it took me a couple months to find a safety job. In that time, I was the catering coordinator for Panera Bread. So I have assistant doing that, which was kind of weird, but that's when learned a lot. Oh, I did. But during that time, I'm trying to find a job. So I'm on LinkedIn, and then there was a connection through my alma mater page on LinkedIn, and he's like, aa, I have something if you're interested. I'm like, what you got? And he sends me this risk engineering position with an insurance company, and I'm like, insurance has safety. What are you talking about? And so I read through this job and I'm like, I can do this. I know nothing about an insurance, but I can do this. This would be cool. So I'm like, yeah. So I applied, I had five interviews over four months. Oh my gosh. And by the end of it, I was like, look, I can do this job. I can do this job. I don't know what you need me to do to prove to you that I can do this job, but I will keep interviewing until I convince you I can do this job. I want to come work here. I can do this job. They're like, okay, let's go. And I've been in the insurance industry doing risk engineering, risk consulting for what, over 11 years now? 11 and a half years. But it was so funny because when I was first looking, all of the insurance firms and companies were reaching out to me and I'm like, delete, delete, delete. I'm not selling insurance. Delete, delete, delete. And I had no clue that this job even existed. And like I said, it was my first manager at the previous carrier I worked for, and it was like, kudos to John. John, if you're listening, thank you so much for taking the risk. Keith, he was his boss. Keith was the guy who hired me, Keith, that will forever be grateful that you gave me the opportunity. But yeah, it's just been a journey ever since. And it's one of those things where it's like, I'm not sure I could ever be a safety manager for one company. And with all due respect, everybody who does that job, right? This has nothing to say that that's a bad job. It's not at all. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that me with my experiences, I need to be able to see different things and go different places. And that's what makes my job so fascinating.

Jill James:

Yeah. I have two questions. Yeah. First question. Let's roll back to the Marine Corps for just a second then I want to come back to insurance. So hazards, risks that you were protecting the Marines from, where are they fundamentally different than anything else that we do in our profession? Or give some examples of maybe the things that you did or were there risks just the same? I mean, risk is a risk as a risk was it

Christina Roll:

Risk is risk. That is true. The Marine Corps risks were somewhat different, just given the nature of what they do. Being a marine is hard and being a marine is tough. And that's why I never wore a uniform. And I have ultimate respect for anybody who does, and it was my honor to serve them in the way that I did. But a military is going to do things that are inherently unsafe. They are shooting guns and they're blowing things up and they're going into war zones, and that's just not safe. So you have to go into that job understanding that they're training to do things that are not safe, but you have to keep them safe while they're doing that training. So it is something you have to kind of take a unique approach to and a different lens to almost, if that makes sense. But they had Marine Corps safety standards. They followed Marine eight 80 2D was the safety standard that they followed. So there obviously were things that they had to have in place. Part of my job was actually traveling across the country to all the different schools and detachments of Marines to make sure they were following those Marine Corps safety orders, and they were keeping their people safe, so, so there was some uniqueness to it, but at the end of the day, yes, it was, okay, yes, you need to learn how to do this job, but we need to make sure that you're safe to do that. And so it was just different.

Jill James:

Yeah. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. That had been a great challenge. Fast forward into the insurance industry. In our profession in insurance is often called risk control, right? Yes. And you starting out didn't even consider it as a job or that we could be there. And so maybe for anyone who's listening and thinking, maybe I'm ready for my next challenge or I too don't understand the insurance industry, can you explain how a safety position an industrial hygienist fits in the insurance industry and what the word

Christina Roll:

Risk means in that context? Yes. So we'll take step one and then we'll take step two. So in the insurance industry, safety professionals, safety and health professionals have a role in that role. I see it as twofold. First is to be a consultant, engineer, control person for the underwriting team. And what I mean by that is that you are working with your underwriting team so that companies that we currently write the insurance for or companies that we want to write the insurance for, we help the underwriters understand them from a safety and health standpoint. That could be property as in, do they have the right fire protection? Do they have things stored properly? Do they have the, all the proper controls in place from a property standpoint? Are they maintaining things well? Is the roof in good shape? Those types of things, right? It can be from a workers' compensation is one of the biggest things, and that's looking at the company's safety programs. Are they keeping their people safe while they're working? Do they have the right programs, policies, procedures? Are they going above and beyond that, or it is OSHA that minimum that they're just barely trying to meet? It could be looking from a products standpoint, are the products they're making going to hurt people, going to hurt the environment? What is that supply chain? Is the supply chain going to be consistent enough that they're going to be able to keep making the product and making money? Because, and I'll come back to that in a second. It could be their fleet, their company autos, and the company might say, oh, we don't have any cars. Okay, do you have people driving around for you? Well, yeah, then you have an auto fleet exposure. And so it's helping the company understand, sometimes understand what their exposure actually is, and then what are their controls in? What are they doing to make sure the people are driving safe? Are they checking their motor vehicle records? Are they giving them regular training? Those types of things. And then it could be liability on the public, like a general liability third party. So if someone comes on your property or comes in your facility, are you making sure that they are safe while they are there? Are your general operations going to affect the community around you to where you could have a liability against them and they could come back and do that? And that gets to the second point of risk. All of those things are a risk to the company. And so what we're trying to do, not only part one, help the underwriters understand that so they know how to evaluate and write the policies the right way and do all the things that they do from pricing and collateral and all of those insurance terms. But we're also then working with the client and saying, all right, client, you have all of these risks. A, do you really understand all the risks that you have? Can we help you identify things that you didn't know existed or you didn't think have existed? And then what can we do to help you improve those risks? Because if you improve the risk and you reduce the likelihood of a loss, insurance company is going to be happier with you because they're not going to have to pay for that loss. So they may be able to reduce the amount of money you send them every year to have your policy because there's less likelihood of a loss. And so I jokingly, but not really jokingly have said, I create kumbaya because if my client is happy and the underwriter is happy, they're both happy with each other and they're both happy with me because I've helped make all of that happen.

Jill James:

So

Christina Roll:

I say that tongue in cheek, but that truly is what I'm doing. I am helping a client be safer in what they're doing and help them evaluate their risks better. Sometimes finding them solutions to their problems as well, you have an issue, you don't know what to do with it. Well, I've seen this or I've seen that, or I know that technology or I know that PPE provider reach out to them. They can help you solve this issue that you're having. And so I can bring in truly as a consultant suggestions and ideas to help them mitigate their risks. So they're either more manageable or they go away completely. That's the ultimate goal.

Jill James:

And so for people who are listening, who are thinking, Christina and people at insurance companies sound like they could be a resource for me, the answer to that question is yes, they can. And so if someone listening is thinking, maybe I need to be reaching out to my insurance company. If they do, what would they ask for it? Is it generally called the risk control department, or how does that work if someone's going to reach into their insurance company and ask for some resources and help?

Christina Roll:

So their first step may have to be their insurance broker. And so this is going to get a little more insurance techie, but insurance carriers technically have to go through a broker to get to the client. And the broker is the one who says, okay, I have client A and they need these coverages. I'm going to go out to all these different carriers, X xl, Liberty Mutual, CNA, travelers, et cetera, et cetera. I'm going to go out to all of you and say, what can you do to give my client the insurance protection that they need? So the broker is the one who gets the best deals for their clients. That's their job. So if a client is looking for some assistance, they go to sometimes their broker and say, Hey, broker, do you have any safety services? Do you have any, I need help with X, Y, Z. Do you have anything to help me with it? A lot of the times, the bigger brokers, they will also have people like me, risk control, loss control, whatever they want to call it. It's a lot of different names, and sometimes they can help. Then they also can reach out to the carrier and say, Hey, carrier, do you have anything more? Can we work together? And the ultimate goal is that carrier and broker loss control work together to provide the client all that, the help that they need. And the beauty of all of this is that depending on broker carrier policy and how it's set up, it could be free for the client. It could be something they're already paying for and didn't realize, and that's where the beauty comes in. They're like, wait a minute, I get this and how do I pay you? You're already paying for me for your premiums. It's already covered. That's not always the case. When I put that out there, don't come back yelling at me and saying, my company charged me because I'm not guaranteeing that every company will pay for you stuff. That's not the case. But

Jill James:

Yeah, it depends on how you're insured, if you're paying a premium, if you're fully insured

Christina Roll:

Or if if it was even part of the policy package. Not always It is. Yeah,

Jill James:

To begin with. I know that examples wise, I know that I have reached back to a broker once to ask for hexavalent, chromium air monitoring. I mean, I'm not an industrial hygienist, and I didn't have the gear to be able to monitor that for some welders. And so I reached to my broker and the broker said, yes, we can set you up with an industrial hygienist. I did have to pay for that, but it was a reduced fee that they had negotiated for that IH work, which was fantastic. There you go. It's also great. You had mentioned earlier, you're checking on policies, procedures, SOPs, things like that when you're assessing a company's risk, and many carriers can help people design those or might have templates or ways to get you started on things like that.

Christina Roll:

That is true. Yes. They may not be able to write the policy for, but they get you going. They can absolutely get you going. They can look at what you have and say, here are some suggestions on what you can add, change, improve upon to make better. Or if you don't have it, here are some starting points on where you can go or they can connect you to a third party who can't do that for you. And like you said, get that at a reduced rate because of the connections.

Jill James:

It's also a great way to leverage your insurance companies for a fresh set of eyes to have someone walk your facility with you and see things that maybe your eyes aren't catching.

Christina Roll:

Absolutely. And that's one of the best parts of it too, because as an insurance risk consultant, risk engineer, we see a whole lot of stuff. So it's so fun. My daughter's elementary school, they have a career fair for fourth graders every year, and I've been asked to go back year after year and talk about what a safety professional means, and I just start talking to these kids. I'm like, Hey, Mercedes-Benz Stadium, it looks like this. But it was really this when it was being built. And we talk about all the things that can go wrong and the books that they love to read. Well, here's the big printers it's made on, and here's all the things that can be noise. And I have my sound level meter up, and they scream at the top of their lungs to see how loud they can be. And it's a big fun thing. I wear my steel toed boots and I'm like, come on, suck. Why? Come on. You could do that harder and

Jill James:

Stepping on your feet.

Christina Roll:

Yeah, yeah. It's so much fun. But I sew them all the different things, and it's all the different things that I have seen multiple times in 11 and a half years that I've been doing this. So I, there's a wealth of knowledge that we can bring to the table that we can then say, I saw best practices. I'm not going to tell you who, but I'm going to tell you that they were here. I'm going to tell you what I saw and give that as suggestions that you can implement on your own.

Jill James:

Yeah, wonderful. Wonderful. Christina, let's switch gears. Okay. So in the introduction, I talked about your passion. I mean, if anybody hasn't figured it out yet, Christina is a passionate person. Passionate for, yeah, just a little bit. Just a little bit for human beings. And you also have a passion for promoting diversity, equity, inclusion within the profession and supporting women. So let's talk about that and do you want to start with A SSP or where do you want to start with that?

Christina Roll:

Yeah, so I guess my passion really started just based on my career path. As I mentioned, when I got to the Marine Corps, I've been the first in a lot of situations, and there's been some serious challenges that I've had to come up against. My very first job, I volunteered to go help with some air monitoring and was told that I'd be too much of a distraction. And so I couldn't do that job, and I wasn't allowed to walk out of the trailer because it wasn't safe for me to be by myself. When I was at the Marine Corps, I had someone in the command above me who, for whatever reason, whether it was because I was a woman, I was younger, people liked me better, I don't know. But he started sending these emails and making these phone calls and undermining all the stuff that I was trying to do and making me look bad against people. And I mean, like I said, been there, done that, have the stories to tell as so many other women in the profession do. And then I got into this insurance industry, and my last job before I got here at XXL, it was so different. All of a sudden people were asking me my opinions and asking me for help and giving me promotions and priding me on what I was doing. And it was just so different than I'm like, this is what it needs to be. It should always be this way, so why isn't it? And so I really started, and then I met A SSP, and I met the Women in Safety Excellence group. And at the time, this is when A SSP was a SSE, so those women in safety, engineering wise, but wise is what we've always we're the wise women. And I met them at the A SSP conference when it was in Atlanta, and I saw these groups of women walking around together, and I saw they all had these cool backpacks, and I'm like, I want one, and I want in. How do I do that? I just went up and I went up to him. I'm like, Hey, how do I get a bag? Who are you? And they're like, well wise, you should come join us. I'm like, didn't know you existed, but I will now. And so I joined, and then I was kind of in and did little things, and then a year later I was like, okay, I'm all in on this. I want in. What do I need to do? Where do I need to help? What do I do? And the administrator at the time was like, well, we need somebody to run for assistant administrator. I'm like, huh, I haven't done much. I was just

Jill James:

For the backpack and

Christina Roll:

Yeah, okay. Exactly. Okay, sure, why not. And so went on, got elected. I guess people liked what I had to say enough. They're like, sure, we'll give her a chance. And I'm truly grateful that that happened. It was an amazing experience being assistant administrator for two years and then administrator for two years. But wise in itself is this such an awesome community. Have over 2000 members within wise, but WISE is known, is known for, I say we have three pillars, three main things that WISE is a proponent is a voice for one is having women's PPE, making sure everybody is aware of the fact that it needs to exist. It does exist, but there needs to be more of it, and it needs to be more accessible, and it needs to be more affordable, and it needs to be actually designed correctly. Don't just pink it and shrink it. It has to be done correctly. And through that need wise for the last seven, eight years has been putting on a PPP and apparel fashion show at the annual PDC. So when you're going to be in Denver with us, Jill, you need to come see a show because it's fantastic. We have so much fun, and it's been growing and growing and growing, but what we have done is we've reached out to all of the different vendors and said, Hey, if you had Women's PPE, we want to show it off. We want to give you credit for it. And when I say that it came from you, and you want to be able to show people it exists, and our wise members are the models, and we walk the walkway, we have music, there's a big crowd, we do the model thing, but the whole point of it is showing that this exists and you need to go find it and have it for your people. So that's been the big one. And as a note too, to go even further was really exciting. Just last month, two of our wise members, Kathy Dobson, who's been in wise maybe since the beginning of it, and Abby Ferry, who was our, he's a previous administrator. She and Kathy worked, and they were on a subcommittee for the creation of a actual women's PPE, standard Z five 90.6. And so super exciting that just came out. It's on the ASP's website. If you haven't found it, go find it, read it, follow it, do all the things.

Jill James:

That's fantastic. So I know it's not an standard or is an ANS standard,

Christina Roll:

It's not, you

Jill James:

Said Z, and so that made me think antsy. Okay.

Christina Roll:

Yes. Well,

Jill James:

So it's a standard with a SP.

Christina Roll:

There you go. Yes. It's a standard that A SSP helped make author and make happen. So again, Z 5 95 9 0 0.6 A SP, and I'm sorry, maybe I stand corrected. I'm looking this up as we speak. I want to make sure I had this correct. It's a technical report. Go. It's the A-S-S-P-Z five 90.6 technical report, and it offers guidance on how to design manufacturer, procure and fit PPE that provides women an appropriate level of protection.

Jill James:

Fantastic. Make sure we link it in the show notes so people can find it. Beautiful. And also shout out to Abby Ferry, fellow Minnesotan, and also podcast guest on this show in the past. There you go. Most listeners know I'm from the Midwest and from Minnesota, so I'm waving to the east where Abby lives right now. Yeah, that's cool. That's so awesome. That's so awesome. Okay, the

Christina Roll:

Other two pillars. Yes.

Jill James:

Yeah, the other two pillars.

Christina Roll:

So PPE is one. Second is bringing awareness to the fact that workplace violence is one of the top three women reasons that women die in the workplace every year.

Jill James:

Yeah, let's just pause on that a second. Yeah,

Christina Roll:

I'm

Jill James:

Go ahead and say it again. Yeah, please. Christina.

Christina Roll:

Workplace violence is one of the top three reasons women die in the workplace every year. Like period, hard stop, WT F when you think that through. And it's not just recent year after year after year. And so we want to bring awareness to that and figure out why is this a thing of all the reasons a woman can die in the workplace, why is it because of violence against her? Now, it could be internal to the company, but it also could be external coming into the building and causing that or waiting in the parking lot or waiting when they're on lunch break, right?

Jill James:

I can think of three women right now who died at work for those reasons.

Christina Roll:

I'm so sorry. That's awful. That's awful. But yeah, that's the other thing that Wise is obviously passionate about and trying to get to the bottom of that and bring awareness to that. And so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle and saying, what can we do? And actually in 2019 Wise was the brain behind a large Women in safety summit, and there is a formal report that you can find on Ass P'S website. It's citable, it's a true document. It's been cited many, many times, and it was a two day summit and they focused on PPE, and they focused on workplace violence and said, what can we do about that?

Jill James:

Another thing to link in our show notes. Fantastic. Yes. What sort of solutions are you talking about or things that you're recommending to employers or have you not gotten that far yet as a group with violence? Violence for

Christina Roll:

Violence, the workplace violence, there may be things in the report, and I'll be honest, it's been a while since I've read through it, so I'm not going to try to say what could be in there. No, no,

Jill James:

That's fine.

Christina Roll:

That's fine. But if I put my insurance risk assessment hat on for a minute, think through a couple of different things. First, facility, safety, security. Do you have ways of keeping people out that shouldn't be in? And are you making sure that people in the front office don't just look at a pretty bouquet of flowers and think, oh, that's so sweet. Go ahead. She'll love it when it could be the estranged husband who has no, he was not wanting to give flowers, but wanting to take a life instead. And then do you have any type of programs within the workplace so that women can bring these issues up in a way that they know they will be heard, they will be respected, their privacy will be maintained, so it doesn't get out to the rest of the workforce, and that you're going to be, that they can express these issues and concerns, whether it is someone outside trying to get in that they're worried about, or if there is something happening inside the workplace that then goes into the whole psychological safety Concept of, which is a whole other conversation that probably would take an entire another hour of a podcast. But so those are two things right off the top of my head that are just, if there's two things you want to do right away, look at those two things. What kind of safety security measures do you have to protect anybody in your workplace? We're talking about women and workplace violence against them, but let's be honest, workplace violence against men happens all the time as well. Exactly. And then do you have anything internally that is known about but is also accessible enough, right? You can have the best thing in the world and have this best program, but if your employees dunno about it or they don't feel safe to come and talk to you about it, it doesn't do you any good?

Jill James:

Yeah. I mean, and it is part of our job responsibilities as eh HS professionals. Workplace violence is something for us to tackle. It's not someone else's job. I mean, it can absolutely be multidisciplinary in an organization for a number of disciplines to address it in the workplace, and it is our responsibility as well.

Christina Roll:

And we're not just talking active shooter type math things. That's not what we're talking about. You have to think through those. And that's a whole other, again, training conversation. But this is not that. There are two separate issues. So just clarifying that too.

Jill James:

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, two of the people that I'm thinking of right now, one was from an inside threat. So a young woman working at a pizza place, I worked with her dad in a different job setting, and she had a coworker who was always wanting to have a romantic relationship with her, and she kept turning him down and it made him angry and he stabbed her to death in the parking lot after work one night. And so you're talking about inside threat, that's an inside threat, absolutely. Where someone needs to feel safe enough to be able to report that and then expect their employers going to take action and do something. Yes. And the other is a young woman who was working at a convenience store who was working alone, and someone from the outside came in and took her and murdered her. And again, that's the outside threat that you just explained. It can be inside, it can be outside. And what are the stop gaps that employers and we as safety professionals can expose for employers to do an actions to take? That's fantastic work of wise. Wonderful. Thank you. The third pillar,

Christina Roll:

The third is helping to bridge the gap of women and executive leadership roles within the safety profession. And this is definitely one of my things that I like to talk about most only because of when I say the gap. And so this is where the DEI hat definitely goes on. There are so many gaps for women, unfortunately within the workplace wise is trying to bring attention to the fact that there's not enough women in leadership positions. And how we can go about changing that, whether it is helping women feel more confident to even apply or whether it's just simply bringing awareness to the fact so that companies can be more thought positive. That's not the way I want to say that, but to me thinking about that as they're looking to hire leadership roles,

Jill James:

Right? Yeah. It's possible that a woman has the skills and abilities to be able to do that job

Christina Roll:

And that they actually want to that job. And then it also, it's one of those things too where it's bringing awareness to women that you don't have to check every box to apply. You just don't.

Jill James:

It's so common for us, it's even common for women that I asked to be on the podcast. Oh, Jill, I've heard your guests. They're really smart. I don't know if I'm smart enough. Yes, indeed. You are smart enough. Yes, indeed. You should be here. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Christina Roll:

The imposter syndrome is so real and it's just crippling. But yeah, so like I said, so that's the third pillar. But the gap thing too, right? It's the gaps in leadership, but there are salary gaps, which to this day, I don't understand why. I mean, McKinsey and Company is amazing in their research and the articles that they provide and the reports that they provide, and they provide a Women in the workplace report every year, and they have shown their studies and their data have shown that if a man makes, on average for every dollar a man can make, women can make anywhere from 86 to 56 cents Doing the same job at the same level, which is just absurd. There was a commercial on, I think it was not this year's Super Bowl, but last year, super Bowl, and I saw this commercial and then my jaw hit the floor because I never thought I would see it on national Broadcast tv, but it was a man and a woman, and they're saying the exact same thing about the jobs they do and the teams that they have and the work they do. And at the end, they're sitting side by side and they're saying verbatim the same thing at the exact same time, and the woman stops and the man says, but I make twice as much as she does. And they stand up and they walk opposite ways off set. And I'm like, holy crap. Did that just was a mic drop of mic drops. And it's unfortunately so true. It's crazy.

Jill James:

I missed that one. Oh,

Christina Roll:

It was so good. I wish I go back and find it because he was so good.

Jill James:

You cited McKinsey in the Havings a study. I've talked about this on the podcast before. And so if that sounds of interest to people that want to dig into, we also had this year, not this year, 2023, the Nobel laureate in economics went to a woman named Claudia Golden, and she did her work on showing labor disparity and paid disparities for women in the workplace. And I have her book, I've been listening and reading about her, and you cited for Every Dollar, and she breaks down by cohort from the last, I think her study is 150 years of women in the workplace. So she divides us up into cohorts and talks about the things that were at play in both the economy and what was happening in, this is all United States based, but what was happening in the economy? What was happening with social movements? What were the reasons that created those environments for those things to happen? And how do they compare cohort to cohort over the decades? It's really fascinating. And of course she's got some recommendations for change as well. So Claudia Golden, 2020 three's Nobel Laureate in economics was all focused on women.

Christina Roll:

Love that.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. What else? What else, Christina? My gosh, these are fabulous. We were talking about your passions. We were talking about wise, we were talking about A SSP. Oh, I suppose if we're talking about wise, if someone isn't in it and wants to be part of that, yes. Let's tell 'em how to do that. I know I'm part of wise,

Christina Roll:

So a couple different ways. First, you got to be an ASSP member, and if you are an ASSP member, it's very easy to be a wise member. You just go in when you're going through your annual membership or at any point, it doesn't have to wait until you're renewing it. You could just add Wise Common Interest Group to your membership for 20 bucks, 2 0, 20 bucks. That's it. Super cheap. And for the record, you do not need to identify as a woman to be in wise. And I know that's crazy, but literally, I was at a conference two weeks ago and I had a gentleman say, yep, Lovewise can't be part of it. I'm like, yeah, you can. They're not part of the group. I'm like, yeah, you can. We're like, we need, yes, you absolutely can. So please, anybody can join us. If any of the three things I talked about ring a bell for you, like, yeah, that needs to be a thing, come join us and join the party and let's make it happen. And then when you are in wise, you are a wise member, go a step forward and look for a chapter wise group. So A SSP is broken down into chapters wise is also broken down into chapters. And what we have chapter wise are groups of wise members within the chapter that meet and have regular semi-regular meetings. They can do charity work, they can do social work, they can get together for coffee, have book clubs. But there are, I think there's over, I think I saw this. I mean there's maybe close to a hundred if not more than a hundred chapter wise groups globally. We had them globally too. They're not just here in the us. They're all over. Yeah, it's fantastic. And we recognize those chapter wise groups that are doing amazing things every year with our chapter wise awards. And if your chapter wise group gets an award, whether it's gold, silver, platinum, the chapter gets awards. If you go on the chapter websites, you have your list of awards and your ribbons along the side, your chapter group will get a ribbon as well. And so that goes on your chapter website to show you your chapter wise group is just as awesome as your chapter is. But yeah, they exist. And so if you're a wise member and you're not in a chapter wise group, reach out Allison Short and Kristen Nini. And Kristen, if I said your name wrong, I'm really sorry. They are our chapter wise co-chairs. Reach out to one of them and say, Hey, I'm in WISE and I want to be in chapter wise. And they will find the group closest to you or they'll help you start one if there isn't one. And you can be the reason that chapter wise exists. And they'll help you find who the wise numbers are in your chapter, and they'll give you suggestions on how to have a first meeting and where to go from there and all the resources and support that you need to make it successful. Another huge benefit of wise, if you are a wise member and you are in need of a mentor or you want to be a mentor, we have the mentoring program platform. That has been the example of all mentoring platforms throughout A SSP and other organizations. And I don't say that to brag, I say that because it's true. We've been doing this for a very long time. The woman who runs this, oh my gosh, Jess is her daughter, Louise. Louise, Val Louise, I love you. I'm sorry my brain just left my head. Louise is our mentoring chair. She is amazing at making these matches and she finds the right mentor for the right mentee and so successful. We actually give mentoring awards to the mentors and the mentees who have just done amazing things, and it's just been so successful. So if you have a need for that when you got to be a wise member, but come on in and it's free. You don't even have to pay for it. So it's just a benefit of being with us. And so it's fantastic. So I would highly encourage you to reach out on that part as well.

Jill James:

What an inspiration. Christina. Thank you. I feel like everybody's looking up these people's names. I want to be a mentor. Oh, I need a mentor. This is fantastic. This is fantastic. So you've been talking about your passions. It's coming through loud and clear is you'd like, is there anything else you'd like to say about that or advice that maybe you have for people right now?

Christina Roll:

So I will keep the DEI hat on for just a second, and what I'll say is if you've heard me speak on it or if you've read my article that was just released, I'm going to shameless plug for me. I just released an article through AIHA and their publication on DEI. So go read it. But you will know that there are some major challenges in the workplace for women, whether it is getting into leadership roles, whether it is microaggressions that are happening against them, whether it is bias that is happening against them. And these are real things and there are real challenges, but there are things that we as safety professionals can do. And so a few things, if I may, for what I would hope my fellow professionals will help me with is to be an active proponent of DEI and not just the women. Think lgbtq plus colleagues think those with disabilities, think those that are culturally different than you are. All of that is the diversity of DEI. Equity is making sure we all have what we need to succeed. We don't want to be equal platforms because equal platforms don't help everybody. We need to have the platforms be different based on the individual's needs to get them to where they want to be. That's the equity piece. And then the inclusion is just making sure we're all on the same page and we're including all of those different diverse groups in the company to make success happen. And so safety pros, here's what I would ask for you to do. If I may think about your teams and think if there's anybody on your team that looks different than you, talks different than you, comes from somewhere different than you, and if not, I'm going to be honest, you have a problem and you need to fix it because diverse teams do more, are more successful, and they're just better studies and research has shown it. So look at your teams. Look who's around you, look at who you go to for help. Are you going to anybody that just said looks different, sounds different, comes from somewhere different? If you're not start because that's going to increase your thoughts, it's going to give you a bigger perspective and it's going to help you see more to do your job better. If you don't have women's PPE, get it. I can help you find it wise, will help you find it. Come to Denver in August and I will walk you around personally to those who can give it to you. Come to the

Jill James:

Just like you did with me.

Christina Roll:

I did. You got to come by these people and come to the Wise Fashion Show and we'll show you all about it there too. I could just go on and on. But those are just some key things. But there's so, and I know it sounds easy, and it may not always be easy, but it's steps that we need to take. And so I just

Jill James:

Absolutely

Christina Roll:

Put that out there in the world.

Jill James:

Yes, that's a fantastic call to action. Call to actions. Fantastic.

Christina Roll:

To actions, yes. Thank you. And then if I have advice for folks, the first advice I would give is, and I think I actually may have said this whenever we talked at NSC, don't be afraid to be your authentic self. Listen to your gut and don't listen to those around you. If you truly feel that what you're doing is right, if it's in your heart that I'm doing the right thing, it might not be easy. Others won't agree with me, but I know this is the right thing to do, keep doing it because it will get you to where you want to go and others around, you're going to see it and you're going to get the support that you need. So listen to your gut. Don't be afraid to be your authentic self. I know that's not easy. I have been in a place where imposter syndrome was real and I was hesitant to be who I thought I wanted to be somewhere else, change who I wanted to be. And I can say that it was just harder than it needed to be. So just be who you are. And again, if the right people around the right people around you will support you and love you and encourage you and lift you up. And if you don't have those people, go somewhere else and find them because they exist. Keep working on those soft skills. As my friend Jason Coon said, soft skills aren't really soft. Soft skills are necessary, and if you don't have them, you're not going to get to where you want to go. So work on those soft skills, the communications, the emotional intelligence, all of those things that sound all wishy-washy, soft, and squishy. But they are so critical to doing our job today. So don't give up on those. Keep working those. Keep working for that personal development and then reach behind you to keep things forward. The majority of our profession is probably 40 to 45 or older, and that means a lot of us are going to be retiring in about 10 years. And there's a lot of knowledge and wealth of information that's going to be walking out the door with it. So please reach out to those behind you to those who are coming up behind us and help them succeed. Share what share their knowledge with you, have you share your knowledge with them, help them get to where they want to go, help them succeed so that our profession will just keep growing.

Jill James:

Fantastic. Christina, if I had some kind of button that did a applause and a crowd, wow, I'd insert it right here. This is fantastic. Gosh, I appreciate your time today. Thank you. And I so appreciate meeting you at NSC, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in Denver and continuing our conversation. Thank you so much.

Christina Roll:

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been an honor. Thank you so much.

Jill James:

And thank you for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good may your employees and those we influence, know that our profession cares deeply about human wellbeing, which is at the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe, subscribe in iTunes, the Apple podcast app or any other podcast player you'd like. Or if you prefer to read the transcript and listen, you can do [email protected]. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more professionals like Christina and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer, and until next time, thanks for listening.