130: What's My Hook?

Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode is recorded May 16th, 2025. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer. And today our guest is PJ Gillam. PJ is an environmental health and safety leader with over 20 years of experience shaping safety, compliance, and culture across academic, government, nonprofit, and industrial sectors. PJ leads EHS operations at Pall Corporation in Baltimore, blending technical expertise with people-centered strategy to drive clarity, connection, and long-term impact. PJ has his CSP and MBA. PJ joins us today from Maryland. Welcome to the show.

PJ Gillam:

Thank you, Jill. Excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me on. I really just appreciate it. I love having this conversation with you.

Jill James:

As I was reading your introduction, I'm like, "Have I had a guest from Maryland before? I'm not sure. I have to get out my map again and check." When we first started the podcast seven years ago, I literally had printed a map of the United States, and then I would put little hash marks in the states where I had guests. Because my goal has always been a guest from every state, but then we went international. I did not print a map of the world, but it's been-

PJ Gillam:

Hey, but you're here now. You're here.

Jill James:

I'm here now. I'm here now. And you're representing Maryland. It's wonderful. It's wonderful.

PJ Gillam:

Well, I love that. I appreciate that. Yeah, we are doing some great things in Maryland, but I appreciate you and all that. I've heard so many great things about you from even my other colleagues when I shared with them, I'm like, "I'm going to get to talk to Jill." They're like, "Oh, my gosh, she's the GOAT."

Jill James:

Well, those are words of high praise. I mean, I know the Accidental Safety Pro is one of the very first safety podcasts out there, and I'm happy to say we're still at it seven years later, honoring the stories of all health and safety professionals, including now you. So how is it, PJ, that you came into this EHS world?

PJ Gillam:

So that's a wonderful, wonderful question. And I will say, I came in screaming, scratching, crawling. I was like, "Dude, why am I doing this?" The reason why I say that is because, Jill, my dream at the time, just like when I got out of college, I went to Morgan State here in Baltimore, Maryland, and I went for electrical engineering. Well, that was short-lived.

Jill James:

That's a lot of physics, man.

PJ Gillam:

A lot of physics. I did not make it through calculus. I tried and I tried, and we even went to pre-calc, came back, and I still did not make it. But one winter, a very good friend of mine, he came by the house, and we grew up together, and he's like, "Hey, man, I got this beat machine." And I was like, "What?" And it's this little BOSS DR-5. If you [inaudible 00:03:30] and you hold your hands together like maybe four to five inches across, and it has all these little pads on it. And so he's a musician. He used to sing, and he's like, "Yeah, you can make music on this." And Jill, I just lit up. I was like, "We can make money doing this."

Jill James:

As a young person, that is the ultimate goal, right? Got to pay the rent. Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

Exactly. So I went on a venture to become a hip hop producer with my brothers, and that was the dream.

Jill James:

This is definitely a podcast first. I love this. I love this hip hop producer. I love it, I love it, I love it. I'm from Minnesota, which is the land of Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis.

PJ Gillam:

Oh, yes, yes, yes. Oh, love them. Wonderful music. Love Purple Rain. Now, I will say this, when I watch the movie now, it does not have the same nostalgia. Except for the music, the music is awesome, but the words, the script, it is horrible. But I still love it. I will still watch it.

Jill James:

I was at Paisley Park a couple of weeks ago, Prince's Estate, which is in Minnesota, and you're right, it's the, gosh, I don't know, is it the 30, 40th anniversary or something like that?

PJ Gillam:

Yeah, because I think it was '85, '86, [inaudible 00:05:04].

Jill James:

Yeah. And so they were bringing out things that the public had never seen before from back then, and those were the things that I was seeing with my eyes at that time. I was coming up at that time. So, wow, never thought we'd take a little Prince or hip hop diversion. So you have the beat thing. What happened?

PJ Gillam:

Yeah, I have this beat machine. And so me and my brothers, we start making music, and I'm in college. And I'm in college, but I'm not "in college." I'm like, I'm going to school, but I'm not going to any of the classes because I'm so fascinated with making all these beats. But I also know from my upbringing, and I have to say this, just shout out to my mom because it was just Mother's Day, she had a very strong work ethic. And so regardless of any dream, she instilled in us to make sure that we had a steady income, that we had a great worth ethic, that we showed up. And so I had this opportunity to work on the installation, army installation, and be a part of one of the first programs in the United States where we were destroying chemical munitions.

Jill James:

Interesting.

PJ Gillam:

Right? It was all the mustard agent that was in and around the country. And so we had this neutralization facility here in Aberdeen Proving Ground, where I actually live, in Aberdeen.

Jill James:

Wow. Did you tell your mom that was the work that you were doing? Just want to check. My mom-ness just got a little twitterpated on that one, okay?

PJ Gillam:

Well, no, actually, it was a friend of hers that had connected me to the opportunity, so yeah. Because she was working on the Proving Ground at the time as a contracts manager.

Jill James:

Gotcha. Okay.

PJ Gillam:

And so I went for the interview. Now all they asked for was for some college work, which I did have. And I took that, and that's what first introduced me to "safety," I would say. Hazardous ways, emergency response, lockout tag out, doing toxic area entries. And I use a lot of movie references.

Jill James:

Wonderful.

PJ Gillam:

So it was the first time I got into a Level A suit, which I always ascribe to ET.

Jill James:

Yeah, right. Yes. Got it. Okay, thanks for the picture. It's there.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. So we were getting the Level A suits with the airline hose into the toxic areas. And so that was my first introduction officially into safety protocols, programs, and things as an operator. And then that actual program was ending, because we finished the project, but I still had this aspiration to be a producer, but I still had to make sure I had a good job at this [inaudible 00:08:02] time. And that's when I applied for a chemical safety technician at the National Institute on Aging down in Baltimore. And that was my first official job in which I did that. I was there for nine years at that laboratory.

Jill James:

Wow. And so were they... I'm guessing because of the type of installation it was they were giving you training. Were kind of lights going on in your mind, like, I am sort of digging this, or was it more like, I just need to pay the rent and I'm going to do this?

PJ Gillam:

It was the latter. I needed to pay the rent. I had no idea. I mean, I was getting the information, I was implementing it, all of the things and doing what was required, as far as... I remember when we were issued masks, so we had to make sure that we were clean-shaven due to qualitative and quantitative testing and all of these things. So it's slowly but surely getting into my subconscious, but I'm not paying attention to really like, "Okay, how's this going to be beneficial later? Because I'm not going to need this when I'm making multi-million records and going into the Grammys. I don't need to worry about all that." However, it did become very important when I saw the opportunity and then went into that role in particular. And I really appreciate it because my first manager, she was phenomenal. Jane Clark, I just have to shout her out. She's my GOAT.

Jill James:

Jane. Okay. All right.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah, she was phenomenal. And she gave me an opportunity, which was for me, such a blessing, such a huge favor over my life, because I had no idea what I was stepping into. A really interesting story with that. So I go into the interview, and so Jane sits me down and we're talking, and there's this machine, just picture in your mind, there's this machine to the left, it's like white and blue, and I have no idea what it is, Jill. So she says, "Well, would you mind turning that machine on?" This is part of the interview. She's interviewing me, she's asking me questions. I don't remember, that's 20-plus years ago. But she says, "Can you turn this machine on?" Internally, I'm freaking out, because I'm like, "I've never seen this machine."

Jill James:

What is this going to do?

PJ Gillam:

What is this going to do? Why am I doing this? What's going to happen? So I walk over to it and there's a box on top, and I said, "Oh, can I move this?" And she's like, "Sure." And I move it. Now I'm just standing there for like a good two... It feels like three hours, but it's probably like two minutes. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, "PJ, you better figure out how to turn this thing on, or you're not going to get this job." So I'm like, "Well, what do you know? What do you know?" I'm like, "Well, everything has an on button." I said, "But don't do that, because that just seems weird if you're just scrambling around, trying to figure out how to turn it on." And for most guys, we're the first ones, historically, they'll say, "Oh, you never look at the instructions."

Jill James:

Exactly. That's what I'm thinking right now. I'm like, "This man is not asking for the map or the directions." Okay. Okay. All right, good on you for knowing that. All right.

PJ Gillam:

I think I heard that in my head.

Jill James:

From your mom. Okay.

PJ Gillam:

So I pick up the instructions and I look at it. Now, I just glance at it. I honestly did not read a thing on there, I just glance. But I'm like, "At least I can show, okay, I'm looking at it."

Jill James:

That's awesome.

PJ Gillam:

So I find the button on the back, just out of sheer luck. I turn it on and she's like, "Okay, you can turn it off." That was it. So I leave. I'm like, "Okay, well, all right, well, did I get it?" A week later or so, I get the call, she lets me know I get the job. And I'm like, "Yes." I'm so elated and super excited.

PJ Gillam:

Well, maybe like a month, two months go by, and she sits me down, and this is when I first... She starts to teach me not only about safety, but how to be professional in that setting, in that environment, how to show up to meetings, how to be prepared, how to be organized. And she said to me, "PJ, do you know why hired you?" And I was like, "Honestly, Jane, I don't know, because it didn't make any sense to me." But I had no experience really except for what I did as an operator. She said, "You remember that machine?" And I was like, "Yeah." She said, "You know out of all the people that interviewed, you were the only person that asked if they could remove that box?" And that showed me the level of character that you had, if it was something that you didn't know about, you would just at least had the respect to say, "Hey, can I move this to this side?"

Jill James:

That is beautiful. Did you ever find out what the machine did? What was it?

PJ Gillam:

It was a label printer.

Jill James:

So nothing dangerous was going to happen. Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious.

PJ Gillam:

Nothing dangerous. It was so wild, but like I said, I appreciated so much of what she taught me about just being, like I said, a professional, showing up, safety. So just to give you a vision, she's about maybe 5'2", red hair, but man, she was so fiery. And so she was adamant about protecting the people. And yeah, it's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful experience.

Jill James:

When she was coaching you on how to show up for meetings or how to be a professional, do you remember something that stuck?

PJ Gillam:

I would say the lesson that I got was conviction. Yeah. She had a very strong conviction about what she knew in the process or the... Like where she wanted to go with those procedures, those programs, and being adamant about sticking to that. Not in a brash, like I'm going to do anything to get by, but the conviction of my voice matters in this space and it needs to be heard. And that particular part of it carried me. She did not back down even... Because I think at that time, and you might've experienced this, and most times when you're in those environments, when you're talking about safety protocols and projects and plans and things like that, it can seem like, oh, we're trying to stifle the progress of a situation. And you're like, "No, I'm not trying to stifle, I'm really trying to enhance it. And I want to align with you in this, and so I want you to have these considerations about whatever the situation may be, like, okay, how have you considered how we're going to eliminate this? Or what substitutions are out there? What other advancements?"

PJ Gillam:

So she was very adamant about presenting those things. And if it's like, okay, we need a third-party vendor or whoever to come in and help us understand something deeper, she was very resourceful in those ways to make sure that those things were considered, whether people wanted to hear it or not.

Jill James:

Right. I mean, and what a great message for our listening audience that you belong here and you have a voice.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah. That conviction. That's wonderful. So what happened with that job? What was it? What do you want to share about that job? How long were you there?

PJ Gillam:

Yeah, so I was there, like I said, for nine years. I was really just getting my feet wet, understanding... That was right when, if you remember, the global harmonization system was just-

Jill James:

Oh, yeah.

PJ Gillam:

[inaudible 00:16:24]. Yeah. So that was the first time that I really got my training boots on, where she allowed me to lead that effort throughout the site and understand what GHS was, what the program... get it implemented and roll it out. And so I was able to do that effectively and make sure... I think we were probably one of the first installations to actually have everybody fully trained when it was first established. And that was a big deal at that-

Jill James:

Very big.

PJ Gillam:

We had over like, man... I was leading our chemical management system too, our chemical inventory. And that was a huge undertaking. You're talking about, I mean, for us, I think it was maybe five to 6,000 chemicals. And things were so outdated. Stuff was in there from the 1960s, '70s. And I love my researchers, but stop holding onto that stuff. Let it go. It's like the Disney song, just let it go, just drop it. And they want to hold on to it, they're like, "No, I think I could use it in three years." I'm like, "For what? For what?" It's like, the validation of your research isn't going to show up in that. Give it to me. It's okay. It's okay. I'll take care of it.

PJ Gillam:

So those are two big programs that we ran there. And again, if you can't tell, I love having fun where I'm at, too. It's about building the relationships. And so that's always been a big part of it. Even when you do have your disagreements. I've had my share of the safety woes that we all get when they see us. And one of the big things that I particularly am adverse to is being considered a safety police. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not there to show some badge. I don't have any badges, right?

Jill James:

Right. It's a wearying trope and a stereotype that so many that don't understand our profession just sort of automatically box us into, and I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. That's not it."

PJ Gillam:

Exactly. And I got wind of that. And [inaudible 00:18:54] your first in the career and hopefully some folks that are just fresh in, that can be very intimidating and put a certain taste in your mouth about what it is that... who you are in this field and how they perceive you, right? They say perception is reality.

PJ Gillam:

And so I just encourage folks at that early stage really get it wrapped in your mind of like, okay, how can I add value? How can I invest in people? How can I get to understand where they're coming from? Because everybody has their own side of the beach ball, like my wife says. And so get an understanding of that and start to have those... That's something that's just always resonated with me, as opposed to what I have experienced with some folks. And it's just that sense of, "Hey, you're coming in here to shut me down, stop me." And already with that kind of energy, it stifles any possibility for connection and seeing how we can really get to some corrective actions, some improvements. And I'm a big about winning. I tell people at the job now, I'm about Super Bowls. So what does that look like for us right now in this season? And so let's figure that out.

Jill James:

Yeah, we want the ring. Yeah. So your passion for people, how did that grow for you? And did it start growing when you were in that first job or was it the next place that you went?

PJ Gillam:

So the passion for... it has always been with me. I just say it just kind of comes out in my workspace. I was the only child at first, which it sounds like most times you're like, "Oh, well, only children"... But I wanted people to be around me because I just didn't have anything to do. I grew up in San Diego, California, so I genuinely wanted to be around other people, wanted to let them play with my toys, play Nintendo, whatever that was. And so even in other spaces, my natural tendency is to serve, is to help, is to see how I can support. That's where I lean to. And I'm sure you might've heard of the DISC assessment, so I'm a high S. My behavior style is drawn towards that.

PJ Gillam:

And so when I'm in these spaces, like when I moved into working at Hopkins, I worked at Johns Hopkins for a bit, that was wonderful because now I was with young minds. And it was good because now I could help them kind of shape where they wanted to go into those professional spaces. And one of the interesting things that I would do during my trainings, and I get weird brandy... I love all those things about... Because again, I'm bringing my hip hop producer acumen into safety.

Jill James:

Wonderful.

PJ Gillam:

And so one of the things that I always do or think about is like, "Okay, what's the rhythm here?" When I go into a space, what's the rhythm? And then I think about, because this is important with music, what's going to be my hook for this space? And so at Hopkins, one of the things that was my hook was whenever I did one of my laboratory safety trainings, I found out this interesting history about Mr. Hopkins. And so most people may or may not know, Johns Hopkins, and there's an S at the end of Johns, he was never a doctor, he was an entrepreneur, he was a businessman. Actually, his first business was selling whiskey.

Jill James:

I did not know that. Okay.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. So he was selling whiskey with his brothers, and then he went on to get into the railroad business and other entrepreneurial efforts. And so before he passed, he did his endowments to two things. One was the hospital, Johns Hopkins Hospital. And then the other one was a, I believe, it's been a while, but I believe, if I'm not mistaken, it was a children's home. You know what I'm talking about? Oh, my words are eluding me, but a home to take care of children.

Jill James:

An orphanage?

PJ Gillam:

Orphanage. Thank you.

Jill James:

Okay, you're welcome. You're welcome.

PJ Gillam:

Orphanage.

Jill James:

I'm like, we're thinking children's hospital, I'm thinking different... Okay, yes. All right.

PJ Gillam:

So it was the hospital and the orphanage. So with that, going back to the whole whiskey thing, when he first started his whiskey business, he used to call it Hopkins Best. So when at the end of every training, I would tell the students this story about Hopkins, and then I would tell them, "So when I call you Hopkins' best, I'm not talking about the whiskey."

Jill James:

That's so good. What a great hook. I love it. I love it. And thanks for the history lesson on Mr. Hopkins. That's fascinating. Yeah. Wow. Johns Hopkins. So you were doing laboratory safety work there?

PJ Gillam:

So yes, I transitioned there. I was doing laboratory safety work, really biosafety in particular. I was a part of that team. And we would do, Jill, over 5,000 surveys a year throughout.

Jill James:

Oh, gosh.

PJ Gillam:

There's a lot of labs. A whole lot of labs. Yeah, it's a lot of labs, and you get to see some very interesting things in those labs. But it was really good work. And I worked on the main campus as well, so I helped support them with just all general safety aspects too, but particularly laboratory safety. So just helping individuals understand the inner workings of making sure, hey, you got to make sure you got good hand hygiene, make sure these chemicals are segregated properly. But like I said, at the end of the day, I also wanted to make sure I implemented in the aspect of professionalism that I learned from Jane. They're college students, I'm like, "If you want to apply for DuPont or Bechtel or Intel, whoever, you want to make sure you have these certain things in place."

PJ Gillam:

And especially with leadership, it was like, okay, you might want to become the lab safety champion for your lab, because now these companies are going to be looking for those particular credentials or accolades that you've taken initiatives here at this time. So those are some opportunities that I had to have, because personal development is huge to me as well. So it was a good time being in that space with those young minds.

Jill James:

Yeah. Really interesting direction that you went. At this point in your career, in the story, were you thinking, yeah, I think safety's my career, or were you still thinking hip hop is my life and I'm going to get that Grammy? I mean, two things can be true. Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

At this point I was now married, on my second child, and things for me had drastically changed from being a hip hop mogul to, personally, I was exploring other things in my life and the turn of where I was as a person, where that went to bed.

Jill James:

Got it. Got it.

PJ Gillam:

It was still a part of me, but I didn't need that part anymore. And so now the thought was, okay, how do I leverage what I've learned in safety and life and professional development, all these different spaces? Because I have an MBA in project management, I have a BS in IT, so I wanted to always figure out how do I interconnect these things to really add value in the best possible way? So it was like safety is the space, but it doesn't always have to be the space where that is seen and projected. So it was like, oh, if I can help somebody else in another area launch a podcast or see some other things, implement a new IT system, I would do those things, but also bring that into safety.

PJ Gillam:

So when you started talking about digitizing things and doing that with checklists and just making things more simplified, looking at how do we streamline things, make it more effective, those pieces started coming together for me. Where I was shifting, now what does it look like for me to put some more credentials behind what I'm doing in safety?

Jill James:

Yeah. So I was going to ask, when did you finish your bachelor's degree and your MBA? Was it during this time at Johns Hopkins, or have you been continuously... Because those are two huge accomplishments. How'd you do that?

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. So I'll share how my wife shares it with me. She says, "Babe, you can get an A"... What did she say? Oh, "It's okay to get a C in the class, but get an A in life." Because at the time it was married, I think I started my bachelor's right... I went back and went back and restarted my bachelor's going to Columbia Southern University online, because Jane Clark encouraged me to do that. She encouraged me to do it in safety, and I said... Because I still wanted to be a hip hop producer, so I said... But I said, I will go ahead and pursue it, because I know how valuable that would be for me to accomplish that. So I did that at the time.

PJ Gillam:

And then I finished that in 2010. And then in 2016, I said, "You know what? I want to go back and get my masters." And that's when, I believe, yeah, I think it was around the Hopkins era where I decided to go back and get my masters, because I really wanted to understand some more things about business and some more things about, again, marketing, about teams, about just all of these spaces that I was hearing about and being exposed to. But I knew that for me in particular, that I had to have those things to help "level" the playing field when I was looking and aspiring to other positions higher than what I was. Because at the time I was a specialist.

PJ Gillam:

So, okay, now I'm reading John Maxwell. I'm a avid reader, and so I'm reading John Maxwell or Simon Sinek and other things, and I'm like, okay, all these notions about leadership. And I'm like, "Okay, well, how do I get there?" And I see these job description and they're like, oh, you have to have this MBA or you need to have this ASP and these CSPs. And I'm like, "Okay, now I need to go ahead and figure that out."

PJ Gillam:

The first time I took the ASP, Jill, I failed it so bad, and I cried so hard in the car. Yeah. Oh, it was terrible.

Jill James:

Yeah. I'm sorry.

PJ Gillam:

It's all good. It's all good. It was my own fault because I didn't take it seriously the first time, to be fully transparent. I knew it was going to be a hard test-ish, but when I say I didn't take it seriously, I took a course for maybe a week. And when I came back, took that four or five grueling hours, it was brutal. And I got out of there and I didn't want to see anything safety, ASP, CSP, R-E-S-P-E-C-T at all. For years, I was like, you could forget all of that. And then COVID came and my last daughter came during COVID. And that experience changed so much in my life.

Jill James:

Yeah, say more. Say more. So you've got a five-year-old. Okay, got it. I'm tracking.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. So we got a 16-year-old, a nine, soon to be 10-year-old, and almost 5-year-old, Gemma Grace. So Gemma was born premature with a heart defect during COVID.

Jill James:

Dang.

PJ Gillam:

Imagine.

Jill James:

No, I mean, I can't. I mean, life was happening to everyone, and many, many people had lots of things happening in addition to a global pandemic.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. And when you talk about, and at this time I'm not at Hopkins at the time, I'm back closer to home, working on an installation again back at Aberdeen Proving Ground. And at the time, the hospitals are so tight locked, nobody can come in and visit us. We got to come in at separate times in the beginning, because you just didn't know what was happening, what was going on, who should be where, all these plexiglasses going up, all the things. And in the midst of this, my wife and I are faced with this amazing, beautiful, yet frustrating, debilitating situation of, we have our daughter here who is literally fighting every day to make it. And we're trying to figure out what to do with all of this, because quite frankly, there's not a whole lot of answers at this time about what the situation is and what they're going to do.

PJ Gillam:

And so it changed a lot, because Gemma, like I said, she's such a fighter. I mean, just give you a picture of it, she has this heart defect. It was a hole basically, between the left and the right. And then her intestines die on her twice. And then she has to get open heart surgery at Christmastime, and then we have to do another open heart surgery the following summer. And then she ends up getting double pneumonia. And me and my wife are just like, wow, okay. And it was hard. It was the first time I ever had a panic attack.

Jill James:

I believe it.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. But what came out of it was just for me, I realized something, I need to go even further. I need to push even further because I'm looking at my daughter and I'm seeing her not give up. And I'm looking at, and I'm like, you gave up on not doing a test, and you got this little infant baby not giving up on life. So I said, you know what? I'm going to go do it. And I did it, and I never regret it because I knew it was going to allow me the ability to do some things different for my family and for others. And I've gotten that opportunity now because being in leadership, being a manager, being able to help shape change in a different way, it's really been so fulfilling to see it all come in to fruition to where I'm now, being at Paul. I told them last night, because I told you I do this thing, I know we talked about it before, I did it actually last night, safety after dark.

Jill James:

Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely, tell the story about what safety after dark is. Yes. And I just want to make sure that I'm acknowledging the fact that this little tiny baby and the way that she came into the world inspired you. Anyway, the little teeny weeny baby can be such an inspiration to move you forward, professionally and personally, it sounds. So what a story.

PJ Gillam:

Absolutely.

Jill James:

Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

And she's still doing it.

Jill James:

I bet.

PJ Gillam:

She is still breaking barriers each and every day. All three of our girls. So when I started at Paul almost three years ago, one of the things, because you know it's a... And then this is me just first officially stepping into the manufacturing world, and that's just a whole different animal. I know you've had other guests.

Jill James:

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, going from the government contracting work, from medical, and now manufacturing, yes, you've seen many a thing in your 20 years already.

PJ Gillam:

And what's interesting, so they don't tell you this in manufacturing, they hold it. So when I was working for Hopkins or government contracting, you have full-on safety teams. You have occupational health, you have radiation safety, you got the industrial hygienist, you got the Hasway... No, no, no. When you get in the...

Jill James:

You're the guy.

PJ Gillam:

It's you, dawg. It's you.

Jill James:

That's right.

PJ Gillam:

That's you. DOT. Oh, it's you. You're like, oh, okay.

Jill James:

Sure, I can do that.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. So when I got there, I did have an EHS, a senior EHS specialist, Stephanie. Oh, my gosh, Jill, if you ever get the chance to meet Stephanie, she is phenomenal. Oh, my gosh. She is A1. Like Caitlin Clark, that kind of... Yeah.

Jill James:

Okay.

PJ Gillam:

So I was like, "All right, Steph." I said, "Look," I said, "I'm here to support you, make it happen, whatever you want to do in your career, and we're going to make sure these people are safe and good." And so when I got there, one of the things that she said to me was about just the presence of the safety team. And at that time, they were just coming out of COVID and they were consolidating their plants from two to one. And so there was a lot of different changes going on at the time. And so there was a lot of unsettling and unrest.

PJ Gillam:

And again, going back to my hip hop era, I was trying to see what the rhythm was and trying to get the... It was funny, Jill, when I first got there, before I talk about the safety after dark, I walk in, I get the job, and I think the first day I get there and somebody looks at me and they're like, "Hey, who are you?" And I'm like, "I'm PJ." And they're like, "What do you do?" I'm like, "I'm the EHS manager." They're like, "No, you're not."

Jill James:

Oh, thanks. There must be an archetype and I'm not fitting it. Okay.

PJ Gillam:

She said, "It can't be you." I said, "Oh, no." I said, "Okay." So we get there, and I said, "What's up with the safety team?" And she said, "Well, it's kind of here and there. We try to make it happen." And I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, what's some of the things?" "Well, especially representation on all the shifts." And I said, "Well, let's do this." I said, "Let's get it started on first shift, but let's do something for second and third that makes sense. Let's do safety." And I was just thinking, again, going back, what's the hook?

Jill James:

Yes, I love this.

PJ Gillam:

Let's do safety after dark.

Jill James:

Love it.

PJ Gillam:

She's like, "Okay." So I said, "All right." We've been doing that since I've been there. So what we used to do was, and so when I say used to, because there's a story even behind Stephanie, where we used to do every other month, either her or I would show up, and now it's solely me, and there's a reason behind that. But I will tell you, the energy from the folks at night around safety is so amazing. I mean, anybody who works night shift has a different type of energy anyways.

Jill James:

Yeah. Interesting.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. It's so cool because they got the pulse of the plan, and you don't have a lot of presence of leadership at night. And so there's a different vibe on night shift than it is on day shift. And so I get privy to that information, so that's the beauty of it. And really, it's no different from what I do on the first shift, but the fact that I'm present there with them on night shift. And it's relaxed, it's not, oh, we're just looking at a whole bunch of PowerPoints, where we're talking about life. Because what I realized there, especially with our site, mental health is a huge issue, because folks are just dealing with a lot of different pressures. And so with my safety teams, I'm always have this safety share of a mental health moment for folks.

Jill James:

Describe how that works.

PJ Gillam:

Well, it could be just, it's just really a question about something in particular around mental health and wellness, or some kind of practice, some kind of mindfulness to share. Whether it's some mindful meditation, a question around certain things with mental health, different resources that we have available. But what I find most, again, most helpful and supportive is just I simply ask those questions.

PJ Gillam:

Like last night, when I asked the question, this is all I ask, "How are you? How are you here at the job? How are you at home? Whatever you want to share." But just asking that simple question, I got so much. I got to find out a guy, he's happy to go back fishing again because it's getting sunnier outside. Somebody else was talking about how they're going out in the lawn, playing in the dirt. It's just those kind of stories. And then even their excitement about what they saw about what we're doing now with management and leadership at the site. They were like, "No, I'm really excited." People are communicating, watching out for each other. Things are looking better because we're implementing five S, I can see down this aisle way. Yeah, so it was just those things, hearing them, that to me is mental health, mental wellness for them to express those things and get those things out and build community, right? That's how I've always strived to build a culture.

Jill James:

You're making space for the humanness when everything else is wrapped around production.

PJ Gillam:

And quite frankly, it's no guessing game, that's what we're there to do. Right?

Jill James:

Right.

PJ Gillam:

Right. And at the same time, we are dealing with human beings. And so I always stress, yes, there needs to be a process, but even behind those processes, there's humans behind that. Every process is created by a human in some way, shape, form, or fashion. And so it's imperative that we invite them in. And that's even where I'm at now, is pushing the AI narrative.

Jill James:

Yeah, say more about that.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. So I preface this with one of your previous guests, and shout out to her, I haven't met her, but Sabina.

Jill James:

Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

She said this about how with... Especially during COVID, and I'm paraphrasing, but how during COVID, it allowed EHS professionals to have a seat at the table. Speaker 4: Yes.

PJ Gillam:

Well, now it's like, okay, I realize that I do have a seat at the table. I am invited into certain rooms and asked stuff just beyond safety. And now I'm encouraged, very highly encouraged about what it looks like to be a thought leader in the AI space and what that means for me. And I hope that your listeners get this, so I was introduced to it maybe two years ago, and it was on the background of some friends of mine that I'm connected with on personal development and he was an IT leader. And so he introduced me to ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini and all these other things. So I started playing around with it there and realizing its potential in just that space, because I'm still big on just having my own hobbies and nuances and things that I want to create because I'm a creative.

PJ Gillam:

So with that, I was like, "Well, how do I bring this to Paul? How do I really take advantage of this here?" Because I'm getting these results in this space. And so what I did was a couple of things. In 2023, one of our big near misses, concern reports, things of that nature, ergonomics was a huge issue. We have a season crew. And so I was hearing the stories, I was listening, taking the pulse, hearing the rhythm, and I said, "Okay, we need to go ahead and tackle this." And so I was able to introduce human tech here onto the site in 2024. And then from that, we haven't had any ergonomic-related issues, incidents since that time. Because now we're able to, in real time, go take the video, see where we're red or green. I can talk to a mechanical engineer or a machinist, and we can look at, okay, do we buy something? Do we modify something? What do we do?

PJ Gillam:

And now I can show the people, hey, we've gone from here to here a lot quicker than taking four or five hours or maybe a couple of days to do an ergonomic assessment.

Jill James:

Yep. Wonderful.

PJ Gillam:

And then from there, I was able to implement some other initiatives. So 2023/24, we were still high on the recordables at the time, so I was like, what do we do? How do we do it? And this is what I'm talking about with AI as far as a thought leader. So AI, from what I understand and believe, it's a thought partner. It's not something to replace you. It's not something to take over.

Jill James:

What a beautiful way to put it. I love that, AI as a thought partner. No, that's great. Yes. Okay.

PJ Gillam:

So you as the thought leader, you get to set the boundaries, the tone, the atmosphere. I encourage everybody, especially EHS leaders, because this is something I found out, Jill, if 75% of just manufacturing industry is investing millions of dollars into AI, yet only, from what I think it was, maybe it was in one of the reports that I saw, that 13% of EHS leaders are even considering what AI is, that's a huge gap.

Jill James:

It is a huge gap. It's a conversation that I had recently as well with people within my organization. And the question always is, "Jill, are EHS people paying attention to artificial intelligence?" And in my experience, until I've met you, PJ, and a few others, it's more like kind of those baby stages of ChatGPT and some of those other things. And that also, that's not to diss our profession or say that we're out, but it's common. You've been at this 20 years. I always, in my observation, 32 years into this career, that our profession is often sometimes a century behind technology. And so we're slow to adopt. And I don't think that's a fault of the profession as much as it is what Sabina was talking about, having a seat at the table. And we're just getting those seats. And so I think we're able to move a little faster to convince our leadership teams that we have, A, a place at the table, B, the tools to do the job, and they don't have to be a VHS tape from 1980.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah, that's great.

Jill James:

Does that make sense?

PJ Gillam:

That does. It does make sense. And I've seen it. I've seen it in different areas that I've been, where you see other areas, other departments have all the tools, all the access to all these different-

Jill James:

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying, it's like, EHS, oh, you're-

PJ Gillam:

[inaudible 00:51:04].

Jill James:

Exactly. Like, oh, EHS, your SDS is in a binder, but we're going to clock people in with an optical scanner, right?

PJ Gillam:

Yeah, exactly. It's like, where's those hasps at? Yeah. Okay.

Jill James:

Sorry if we took that a different direction. Please come back to your... Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

No, you're good. I love it. And so with that, what I always do, I love to encourage people, I don't tell nobody do it, you're grown. You do what you want. But what I encourage us to do is to take those steps, because I will just say, one, AI is not going away. There's a book that I'm reading right now called AI Leadership by Jeff Wood. I encourage folks to take a look at that, read that. But what he says is in there, which I agree with, is, "The train has left and it's not stopping." And so with that, what are we going to do with it? We're stepping into the millennial, zennial, all those ennial ages where we're having a new workforce, they're asking different questions. And you need to be prepared for those things.

PJ Gillam:

And the demands are getting higher, quite frankly. There's all these unrest, there's all this uncertainty, and you want to be able to manage those things effectively, efficiently. That's why I say being a thought leader means using it strategically, going beyond simply the compliance. That's what I'm always thinking about, compliance is very necessary, and we can't scapegoat that, we can't diminish that.

Jill James:

But it's the baseline. It's the minimum.

PJ Gillam:

Yes. And for EHS leaders, I say this, how can you make an impact beyond those things that really are truly affecting the business? And that is what I got from what Sabina was sharing, was, hey, this is the huge opportunity for us. And AI is really how allowing us and others and other parts to leverage those things to bring back that creativity that we have, to play with certain things. There's these myths, all right, around AI, is like, oh, is it reliable? What about the risk? Well, I encourage people understand prompt engineering. I took a class with it and for business transformation through Purdue University. Understand the limitations that you can put on it. Understand the factors that play when you put in a prompt to make them clear, to make them structured, to give a framework to get other perspectives from all of these different bodies of information that are available, so that you can go to your plant manager or your site director or whoever and ask the questions, hey, have you considered? And see.

PJ Gillam:

Because what I've learned from mentors and other people in my... A lot of times, it's the people that are willing to chase those problems who get the greater opportunities to get the greater impact, to have the greater return on impact and investment that make the difference. And that's where I'm at in my life, because I know what it matters at the end of the day for the people that are impacted by what we do, how we do it. And that, to me is the greatest thing.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's wonderful. And the class that you took at Purdue on generative AI, I'm guessing it taught you what a good prompt is, but I bet it also taught you the precautions thereof, the ways to check your sources, all of those things too, yes?

PJ Gillam:

Yes, it did. It did. And again, AI, it's on an exponential climb. So it's even changing even today, even from when I took that class. So I still have to learn even more from what I did in that class from other industries, from other experts about what should my prompt really be focusing on? How should I be structuring it? But it's learning those basics around that and other nuances, too. But I start there because that's a core basic in this space when you're talking about it.

PJ Gillam:

But doing my data analytics, I was able to do that, to understand, "Okay, what are some of these granular things that we're having around our slip, trips, and falls?" And so it's like, okay, well, what would've took me a whole week to do, now it's... Again, what did we say earlier? When you become, and especially in manufacturing and those other industries, when you're the only person in the room to figure out the things for safety, time is of the essence. And I'm not saying, oh, you got to rush through it, but this is a chance to really expand what you're doing and be more streamlined with what you're doing so that you have a certain level of surety about what you do. And that's why I say you need to learn it to your advantage and let it utilize it in that way, and not take a [inaudible 00:56:32] side road from what you're doing because you're so ingrained in getting that information, and it's taking more time to really be of an impact. And you're not reactive, now you get to be proactive more.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's beautiful. A couple of weeks ago, HSI, the company where I work, we gathered our customer advisory board together for one of our meetings. We meet with them a few times a year. And I asked a question, and we did it as a poll to be able to have spur a conversation. And the question was, "Do you feel like the EHS profession is getting more or less influential?" And 75% of them said more influential. And then we said, "Why do you think that's the case? Interesting outcome, wonderful outcome. Why do you think that's the case?" And they all said, "Because we have data." Because we have data that tells a story in a similar way that our counterparts in other pieces of the organization have always had data, now we have it.

Jill James:

Because of the systems and platforms and the things that you're talking about, PJ, it gets you to be able to tell a story. You have a voice, you have the data to back it up. And now you're firmly in that seat at the table as part of the decision-making team. And so therefore, they said that's why they felt we're more influential as a profession.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. No, I like that. Yeah. I like it because it does give us, again, the ability to go back to what I said, is to have the conviction about what we're sharing.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's right.

PJ Gillam:

Because data is so key, especially with leadership. I got asked a question recently about it, because of certain situations, they were like, "Well, PJ, what's your confidence level that we're taking the right actions?" And so in that meeting, I was able to express, "Well, here's the data. This is what it looks like." In this particular area would not be in consideration because it's maybe fifth or sixth on the list. So I don't want to deviate from the strategy, from the vision that I've already created based on the data that we've already collected. And that leader said, "You know what? I appreciate that." And I was able to give him that story and back it up with data. His confidence level was sure, because my confidence level was sure.

Jill James:

That's right. Beautiful. That is beautiful. I know that we're running short on time, and I'm so appreciative of this conversation today. And I know there are a few other things in my notes that I wanted to ask you about, if you don't mind.

PJ Gillam:

No, go ahead. Go ahead.

Jill James:

This has been such a positive and warm conversation. And I appreciate that. It's wonderful. And I know that you also perhaps wanted to tell a story about a time that you were threatened in safety, and maybe that outcome. I don't want to take us down a downer road, however, I have a feeling that this is going to be a good life lesson. So do you want to share that?

PJ Gillam:

I can share it. Oh, absolutely. Look, one thing we'll learn, Jill, all this stuff is cheesecake. A good friend of mine, which I need to introduce you to because he's in construction safety, he shared that with me when I first became a manager. I was all frazzled, I was like, "Bro, what do I do?" He said, "Hey, man, all this stuff is cheesecake." What you do, he said-

Jill James:

What did he mean? Okay, tell me what he meant by that. Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

So what he meant by that was not to diminish what we do as safety. What he meant by that was we've been through some things in life that have been really... Like I said, my daughter's been through COVID. There's other life stories. I'm sure you got life stories, the listeners have. And that's what he was getting at, you've overcome a lot. So this right here ain't nothing but cheesecake. You can figure this out.

Jill James:

I love it. That's beautiful.

PJ Gillam:

So this is in the beginning of my EHS career. And I'm green, I'm fresh, I'm trying to make a name for myself, PJ, safety guy.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't look like a safety guy. Yeah. I mean, that's what they told you when you walked in the door of Paul. Okay. Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

Right. And they still don't. They still don't believe me. They be walking up to me, I'll be like... I got to literally wear a t-shirt. I have several of them. I have safety manager limited editions. They think it's for them, it's for me, to remind me. But it was early on in my career and I was working at the NIA, and I was walking throughout the labs. And one of the tasks was just to do labs, like SAT lab surveys, just doing a quick inspection of different people's labs and what they were. So I was doing labs and offices. Well, Jill, welcome to this one gentleman's lab. No, no, his office. He's a researcher. All I saw were the towers, like the twin...

Jill James:

The computer towers?

PJ Gillam:

The computer towers of paper. There was just stacks and stacks of paper up above. All this research. And it's a small office space. And I'm looking at this and I'm like, "This is a fire waiting to happen."

Jill James:

We have a lot of combustibles in here.

PJ Gillam:

Right, we got a lot of combustibles. He's got no way to get in and out of here. I mean, we're talking life safety code, all the things. So I look at that and I'm like, I write it up and I say, "Hey, are you okay in here?" And he's like, "Oh, yeah." I don't know because there's a lot. So I wrote it up in the report, I send it. And email it as I'm supposed to, because that's what I'm required to do, that this needs to get corrected. And then I get an email back basically letting me know why did I call this out? And so I'm like, "Well, it's not in compliance. If there's a fire breaks out, how is he going to get out of this office when there's all these combustibles in here? And he's got no line of sight to get even out"... So I'm like, "Okay." I walk out of my office, I'm walking through the halls and I see the researcher.

Jill James:

Was there theme music playing in the background somehow? I can hear it.

PJ Gillam:

It was those dark parts of the Avenger movie. It was like a Thanos moment. So he walks up to me and he says, "Did you write me up for having all my papers?" And all these things. And I was like, "Yeah, I did." I said, "I'm just thinking about you and your safety. I don't want to see something happen to you, because you had all those papers in there. It's just, can we move them out?" And it proceeded to go on into how dare I call him out on that? He's been there for eons.

Jill James:

Oh, yeah. That-

PJ Gillam:

Why would I do that? Yeah, and it was like, "Do we got to have this conversation out here in the parking lot?"

Jill James:

Oh, no. Oh, no.

PJ Gillam:

Now, me, I'm like, look, I got a dad who was a former Vietnam vet, all right? And so he taught us a certain level of things-

Jill James:

I'm sure he did.

PJ Gillam:

... to do in these situations, but I can't do that because I got to be professional, Jill. You know what I'm saying?

Jill James:

Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

So I looked at him and I said, "No, there's no need for that." And I proceeded to walk the other way.

Jill James:

Good work. Perfect. Perfect.

PJ Gillam:

But I was definitely shocked.

Jill James:

Bet you were.

PJ Gillam:

I was. And it was in those moments, I was like, it is really worth it to do the safety thing, because this so hard. I've seen it. And there was other threats along the way, in other ways and shapes, form, and fashions.

Jill James:

We've all had them.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. I'm like, man. I was like, [inaudible 01:05:48] is like, man, here comes the safety guy. He's going to do... I'm like, it ain't that deep.

Jill James:

That's right. It all cheesecake, as your friend-

PJ Gillam:

It's all cheesecake.

Jill James:

Right. Yeah. You had said, don't lose yourself for the sake of the job, so you chose yourself that day.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. And even after that, again, I'm big on relationships, and even if you don't like me, you're not my best friend or whatever, I still respect and care. I tell people this all the time at my trainings for a minute, I care about the person that cares about you the most. And that means something to me. It really does, because the last-

Jill James:

Say that again, PJ.

PJ Gillam:

I care about the person that cares about you the most.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's right.

PJ Gillam:

And then I ask them to picture that person in their mind, whoever that is, they have a certain belief and a trust that they're going to, at the end of the day, see you, talk to you, FaceTime, text, whatever that is, and know that you're okay. And so it's imperative that we build some sort of relationship, communication, connection to ensure that that happens to the best of our ability. I can't promise you perfection, but I can assure you that that means a lot to me when those calls have to be made and it looks different for them.

Jill James:

That's beautiful. I love it. I feel like we can leave it there, unless you're going to drop any other great things. I mean, Emily, our producer, is going to have so much fun naming this episode.

PJ Gillam:

Oh, my goodness.

Jill James:

PJ, we could do a coffee table book of PJ quotes at this point. It's awesome. EHS coffee table book, maybe that's going to be what we're going to collaborate on.

PJ Gillam:

I love it. I love it. I've enjoyed this whole time. Yes, thank you so much.

Jill James:

Me too. Me too. Thank you. It's just been so fun, safety after dark and what's my hook? And I want to make sure that I shout out the women in your life who've definitely been guiding you along the way. You've mentioned Jane and Stephanie and Gemma and your mom.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. And I can't forget Gladys, my wife. Yeah.

Jill James:

And Gladys. Yes, you mentioned Gladys. Yes.

PJ Gillam:

Yeah. The reason why I said the Stephanie part, and you don't have to add this if you don't want, but Stephanie is now, it's wild, so last year around this time, Stephanie had the opportunity to get promoted. So now she is our... When you hear this, you're like, what? She's our operations manager.

Jill James:

From safety to operations.

PJ Gillam:

She went from safety to operations.

Jill James:

Awesome. Awesome. Yeah.

PJ Gillam:

Right. So like I said, she's my Caitlin Clark, phenomenal. She actually goes to Hopkins now. She's going for her master's degree. I mean, this young lady, I mean, she cares about the people so much. She's so organized and deliberate. And so when they presented it, I was like, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it makes total sense. And I have another end into that side. So we still collaborate on a lot of different things and she brings them up to me, she's like, "Hey, this is going on. Can you help me out with this?" And I told her, I said, "Hey, I always have your back, no matter what."

Jill James:

Surround yourself with good people. Surround yourself with good people. And that's been your story today, PJ, surround yourself with good people. And creativity and joy, and paying attention to human beings. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing your story.

PJ Gillam:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Been my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much for hearing me. Yeah.

Jill James:

And thank you for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. Me, our employees, and those we influence, know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being is the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player that you'd like. Or if you'd like to read the transcripts, you can pick up on all of those great things PJ shared today. You can read and listen at hsi.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like Jane. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.