137: Why Psychological Safety Is A Critical Leadership Skill

Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded February 10th, 2026. My name is Jill James HSI's Chief Safety Officer. My guest today is Danishon, or Sean, Felder. Sean is a senior safety and leadership professional with more than 30 years of experience in the US Air Force Reserve and Department of Defense, where he serves as Chief Enlisted Leader, driving enterprise-level safety, risk management, and human performance initiatives. Sean is retiring this fall. Sean is a certified safety professional and human and organizational performance practitioner, known for advancing strong safety cultures and practical people-centered leadership. Today, Sean also works as an executive coach and advisor, helping leaders navigate complexity, transition, and decision-making with clarity and purpose. He resides in Tampa, Florida with his wife and two children. Welcome to the show, Sean.

Sean Felder:

Hey, Jill. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity again, and just being able to come on this phenomenal podcast and this platform that I listen to, and in particular, speaking to someone who I greatly respect in this industry. So thank you again.

Jill James:

Humbling. Thank you, Sean. I appreciate it. So Sean, where would you like to start your origin story and how you found your way into safety in the military? How interesting. Yeah.

Sean Felder:

I know, and you're going to hear the reoccurring theme, probably like 99.9% of your guests who's been out here, it was definitely accidental. It was not supposed to happen. I had been in the military at that point for 16 years, and I was doing diet therapy. It's a small career field where you work in hospital wards. At that time-

Jill James:

What was the name of the therapy? What kind of therapy?

Sean Felder:

Diet therapy.

Jill James:

Diet therapy. Okay.

Sean Felder:

Therapy, yes.

Jill James:

I thought you said dive for a second. Okay, diet therapy. Okay.

Sean Felder:

So diet therapy. We worked right under a registered dietitian. So they have their technicians and that's what we are. So we kind of do the legwork. That's what I originally signed up for to come to the military doing. And I enjoyed it, but it was just getting extremely redundant. And one thing I was noticing as I grew in my career, and if you're familiar with the Myers-Briggs and StrengthsFinder 2.0-

Jill James:

Yes. Yeah.

Sean Felder:

... and all these personality assessments, everything about that career field was total opposite of my strengths.

Jill James:

Interesting.

Sean Felder:

Yeah, so it was only a matter of time. It was a fellow colleague of mine who I had knew previously throughout a couple of different details that we were on in the Air Force. And he had cross-trained. Cross-trained is when you go to another career field. He had cross-trained into safety. And he seen me one day and he was like, "Hey man, I think this might suit you well." At that time, I had no clue of what safety was at all. I thought I put it along the lines of being the police. I'm like, "Safety?" I'm like, "No." And so once I got time to really do my due diligence and look into it, and just seeing at the crossroads I was at ... Because I was really leaning heavy towards getting out my military obligation. That's how much I was really outgrowing the career field I was previously in. I went in, did a little research, spoke to him more, and this was probably over maybe four months and ended up cross-training and went in safety, and man. It's one of those things. We say in the military all the time, sometimes your second and third career should have been the first one, and this should have been the first one. Everything that I loved about work and aspects of work, its safety hat. It was all encompassing. And now it just totally changed my career, totally changed my perspective, and I just fell in love with it.

Jill James:

Wow. So back then, do you remember, what were some of the first things you worked on? Just as, if you didn't know anything about it before and then you got into it, what were some of those first projects or initiatives?

Sean Felder:

The biggest thing that I was like, "Oh, I didn't know you guys do this," all incident investigations. We call it mishap investigations. I automatically assume a person get hurt, they go to the hospital, and that was it. But I never knew when you're dealing with the military, we also have, it's a different form of Workers' Compensation. It's a different form of being placed on restricted duty and TLDR. Everything is kind of the same but a little bit different, but I never knew the behind the scenes of it has to be spoken, to the person who got hurt. Find out what it was, write a report, put it into a database, track trends, go with analysis. And then over us, we have a governance also, and it's called the Air Force Safety Center. So they're the big policymakers who will control it all, and all the data goes to those guys. So once I got behind the curtain and seen that wizard, I'm like, "Oh, whoa. Okay, this is a lot more comprehensive than I ever imagined." But that was my first down and dirty, and that was a year of just incident investigations and learning about the different classifications where we put people who've been injured or illnesses under it. And so I knew I had stepped into something. But again, even as detailed oriented that was, it was right in my wheelhouse.

Jill James:

Yeah, that sounds like a really great way to start. As you're hearing all of those stories from all of the people that you were speaking with, you were learning along the way. Yeah, learning about the work, the work activities, why people do what they do, how they act the way they act, the things that were missing, right? I'm guessing.

Sean Felder:

Yes, ma'am. Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

Jill James:

Interesting. Yeah. What else do you want to say about those first few, maybe years, or sort of-

Sean Felder:

It's all formative. I think it's changing any type of career, industry, sector, job, it's all about learning. One of the most important thing about our world, Jill, is we hate to say it, but we do deal greatly with compliance, and with compliance comes a lot of technical expertise. So my first five years was just that, understanding the military's standards, regulations, and also understanding OSHA 1910, 1926, and even a little bit of maritime, a little bit of construction. I was deep in into, and so that was just all standard understanding, confined space, fall pro. So everything that we knew our workers was exposed to, that's our OJT within the first three years. Like, understand this first before you even get to more of the policy side of the house and more of the safety management system side of the house. But along the way, you're going to learn those things, but man, I was Technical Tom, the first three years. I was like, "Geesh, How much more do I-"

Jill James:

Me too. That's why I love it with these kids these days. I'm like, "You just mean you can just ChatGPT this?" [inaudible 00:07:29]

Sean Felder:

I know. We were thumbing through those 1,000, 2,000 page manuals, Jill. We got to get it the hard way.

Jill James:

Yes, yes. Yeah, I started with the government too, so I know what you're talking about. And on my bookcase behind me are still some of my original codes of federal regulations with my highlighting in them. I usually read things online today, but every once in a while I crack open one of the paper books because I just like the way it's organized and I like to see several things on a page at a time. Yeah, anyway-

Sean Felder:

I'm a nostalgia guy too.

Jill James:

Are you?

Sean Felder:

Sometimes I have [inaudible 00:08:11] like, I have to have my fingerprints, hit those pages to be like, "Okay, I do remember where I come from somewhat."

Jill James:

Yeah, exactly. That's true. That is true. It is a fingerprint of our careers. And yeah, some of the pages, I'll open some of my regulations because I know that I'll have marked a certain area for a certain thing that I used for a certain, maybe accident investigation. And I'm like, "Okay, what was that again?" And I know I can go back to that page and find exactly the thing. So in the Air Force, what are the safety regulations called? You reference the OSHA regulations, but what are they technically called in the Air Force?

Sean Felder:

We call them Air Force Instructions.

Jill James:

Okay.

Sean Felder:

So every Air Force instruction, everything that has guidance and directive in what we should do, they have an Air Force instruction. Then it breaks down into a technical guide. It also breaks down into operating instruction. So it's a weird hierarchy, but it all leads back to the Air Force Safety Center. They're located in Kirtland Air Force Base, and they have maybe thousands of employees, and these are the ones who are the brains behind all the operation of just, "This is what we notice to be the threat," or "This is what we notice to be taking place." Like I mentioned, all the data goes to those guys, so they're able to really put the budget where the efforts need to be, which is a good thing. There's no money that needs to be wasted. But they are Air force Instructions and we're driven by. And they have a name like Department of the Air Force Instructions 91202. So we'll refer to it as DAFI-91202, paragraph 3.2. It translates the same way just in the standard on the outside, it's just we give them a little bit more to go off of. But the funny part, Jill, is those standards started off when I began, maybe 1,000 pages, and now they're down to maybe 200. Because what we found out is, it was extremely redundant. We're citing the same thing that's in 1926 and 1910, so why not just bring that standard in play. And so that's what we do now. We utilize OSHA standards more than anything, because again, we were just reinventing the wheel and trying to have our own language, and it was slowly tripping us up. It was making it hard for the safety pros that's out there.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. So Sean, for people who are trying to picture what it looks like where you work, in all of the years you've been doing this work, are you primarily on the same base? Does your job move you around? What is the physical locations look like for your career?

Sean Felder:

I really try to give it a visual to have, especially a lot of my civilian colleagues, a perspective of, say, you have this one big corporation, Jill, and we'll call that Air Force Enterprise. And within that business, just like on the outside, they can have multiple lines of business or places of business throughout the United States of America. Now, through those small individual businesses, they each have a safety director, which is called the occupational safety manager. That's what I am. And so within each installation, which is that business unit, now they have a specific function, whether they're doing a specific airplane for the F-35 or KC-135 or Stratotanker that does refueling. And so within that command, each installation can have in between 500 to maybe 2,000 employees, which is military members. So now that person is responsible. And their shop usually breaks down to their safety office, is five to six people. It's an occupational safety manager, and then they have one that's in charge of the flight side, aviation. You have one that's charged of the weapons because we deal with munitions also. And then you have specialists, which is about four or five younger junior enlisted airmen, and those are the techs. That's how we start out with, the technical experts. And so that's the breakdown. But everybody, again, reports to Kirtland Air Force Base, which is the Safety Center, but it's the same thing. And there you can put it like the C-suite is Kirtland, and everything spread out big business-wise, they each have their directors. And even with those directors, you have a regional manager too, and those are what's considered to be our major commands. So the hierarchy is similar. The language kind of throw people off, but once you give them that perspective, like related to a business, it makes a lot of sense regardless of what that person's rank is, so to speak, or regardless of what their specific function is.

Jill James:

Right. Right. Makes total sense. And you work as both a reservist, so you're still in the Air Force Reserve and you work as a civilian, right?

Sean Felder:

Mm-hmm. So like I mentioned, I'm on the ground in a business unit because I'm the occupational safety manager. Remember, I also said that each specific area has a regional manager too. So also my role, I'm billeted as that regional piece, which is called a chief enlisted manager of the safety career field in a specific region. And so basically, everybody who's in the reserves Air Force, reserve command, I'm one of the chief enlisted managers over those guys. It's guys and gals. It's maybe 250-350 of those. So everything from training, development, certifications, boots on ground to help, sending type of manning assistance, any type of brain trust, innovation, that's where we are at the headquarters.

Jill James:

Yeah, let's stay on that hierarchy for just a second. I think maybe this finishes off this piece. You had told me in our prep that you report to a wing commander. Is that correct?

Sean Felder:

I do. Each one of those installations, those business unit, you have a wing commander. And the wing commander, he is the end all, be all. He's the CEO at that level. What he's responsible for, we report directly to him, so everything under his care is called the Mishap Prevention Program. And we run program. But the only fortunate, unfortunate is that they usually are just a crème de la crème leader. They've been around, they've seen it all, they get safety, but the unfortunate piece is that you only have them for maybe 24 months and they're going somewhere else. And so you got to imagine building that relationship. I don't know, and I've maybe had eight, nine right now, to be married, then divorced, then be married, then divorced. It keeps starting over. That gets a little tricky. But that's pretty much their role. And it keeps us on our toes though actually, Jill. It's really a good thing because it never gives us a chance to get complacent with what we're doing innovating-wise and building programs, continuous process improvement. Those things are important.

Jill James:

Yeah, Sean, you have to be really good by now at that relationship building with the wing commander, and then also explaining the initiatives and like, "Hey, we got it. Welcome to the job, new leader. Here's the lay of the land. This is how we do things here. You can have confidence in what we're doing." And then you're building rapport to, I assume ask permission to do things, get approval for things just like you do in the private sector.

Sean Felder:

That's it. The first two, it was a little hard getting used to, but after that I start really building a way forward. And one of the first things I do, I kid you not, Jill, before I get any new commander, I read Daniel Goleman's Emotional Intelligence. I read that book every single time.

Jill James:

Oh my gosh. Wow.

Sean Felder:

Because I'm trying to get rid of a lot of the biases I had from the previous one and know that this person coming in is going to take every ounce of empathy and understanding that I have. So that's a staple for me, and it sets me out on the right path, actually.

Jill James:

Amazing. Say the name of the book again.

Sean Felder:

It's Daniel Goleman and it's Emotional Intelligence, Why It Matters More Than IQ. That's one of my favorite books. It pokes a hole in our thinking, big time.

Jill James:

Okay, well, I'm going to find that. I'm not familiar with that book. I will find that. Thank you for that. And for our listeners, gosh, imagine getting a new boss every 24 months.

Sean Felder:

Boo. Brutal.

Jill James:

Wow. No kidding.

Sean Felder:

It's brutal.

Jill James:

Okay, so you started out doing all of these technical things. You're learning, you're building on your career. Yeah, what aspects of safety come next, or what have you been working on lately as you continue to evolve your career?

Sean Felder:

It's the trajectory. Just like most of the other safety pros, everyone starts out technical, and then our thing is big, heavy. It's still a rank-based system. Say you're doing the technical expertise side, you're going to be anywhere from an E6, which is a technical sergeant, and below. Once you get to E7, consider that to be management. So that's your master sergeants in the Air Force. So once I became an E7, now we're starting to really [inaudible 00:18:04] to the safety management systems. Looking into policy, looking into building programs and heavy continuous processes. And also you're starting to get credentialed too. So you're starting to really get into your social safety certification. You're starting to get into your CSPs and you're learning different ... Because the Air Force only touches a small piece of EHS. It's real heavy safety, but a lot of environmental and the health piece, you really have to seek that information for. There's a lot of continued education, Jill. It's not going to come to you like this. So we have to hunt and we have to really ... I was fortunate to grab a couple of real good mentors. One of my guys worked at Geico and the other guy worked at Tesla. And they really helped me start thinking outside of just the Air Force way, because are language is kind of foreign, and start really thinking broad. And then as you know, just being a part of ASSP, NSC, you're going to network and meet some phenomenal people in our industry.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Sean, I don't think you and I talked about this when we had our chat before this recording. I did six months at a National Guard reserve base in Minnesota, and I specifically worked in environmental, and that was right out of out of safety school. So you get a little bit of the environmental thing, but I bounced into that environmental job. And that was so interesting, the types of environmental things that they were focused on. So you picked up, like you said, the EHS part along the way, but you had to go and pursue it. Are there, in your installation, people who specifically just focus on the environmental piece? Or how does that work?

Sean Felder:

It is. And that's one of the things when you're dealing with each installation, you're pretty much going to have oversight of everything, the bulk of what your workers and members are exposed to. But the other things, you're going to outsource those. So every installation have what's considered to be a two-fold entity that takes care of air sampling and things of that nature. You have what's called bioenvironmental. They actually have a career for that, CIH. All your industrial hygienists, they have a job. And then you also have public health. They have those folds. So we call it the three-headed monster. You have safety, you have bio, and then you have public health. But the only disadvantage that we face, Jill, is that if we don't really try to be implemented within that fold, we can miss out on a lot of good training opportunities and a lot of awareness in that world.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Felder:

And I didn't know how much I had missed out on until I really start pursuing my CSP and I'm looking at those questions they're asking, just prepping. I'm like, "Whoa, I have no idea what these people are talking to." So I began to start shadowing those guys. I started getting on their schedule when they went out, get air sampling or any type of training, and just as you did, just kind of being thrown in a little bit. About six or seven months, I was actually embedded within their organizations just to learn that side.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have to be a self-starter to do those kinds of things, because I assume you could have stayed in your silo had you wanted to. But it doesn't sound like you're that kind of person. All of those things in your self-study, did that lead you into dealing with more of the risk piece? I know you've talked with me about total worker health. How did that piece evolve for you, and what does it look like in practice there?

Sean Felder:

It's really the evolution. You see exactly what you're doing, Jill, and I think it's like anything, like you mentioned, trying to be a self-starter and then noticing I'm not as proficient or comfortable in this world. So I noticed when I wasn't proficient in confined space or fall protection or different facets of the occupational side, and so I tried to really enhance that expertise. And the same thing, once I had seen the technical piece and understood the safety management systems from ISO to ANSI to 18001, you just keep evolving. And then about five years ago, the Air Force got real heavy on risk management. It was always a fixture, but not to the point of once we deal with, in quotation marks, "war," risk is a big thing also. And so once we started doing different Air Force instructions on risk, I noticed I knew risk, but the only risk I was really aware of was the hazard side. Then I got with a good mentor and he's like, "Hey, you have one piece to this puzzle, but you know it's three more pieces." And he's like, "What about the operational? What about the strategic side, and what about financial?" And once he said that, it just piqued my interest. I'm like, "You know what? I never heard of enterprise risk management," and so that was my next ... I always try to set, I wouldn't call an audacious goal, but I knew it would take about two to four months to try to understand it. Because again, I was so programmed.

Jill James:

Yeah. Was that mentor someone within the military system you're in, or was that someone that you sought outside?

Sean Felder:

It was actually outside. The four mentors I've had, Jill, or have now, they're all on the civilian side, because I kind of knew ... Nothing taken against all my colleagues within the military, but I knew what those discussions would look like. But again, once I joined the ASSP and started sitting at those tables and those bars with that whiskey and talking to those guys, I'm like, "Whoa, I have no idea what these guys are talking about." And so then I was like, "Okay, if nothing else, to be able to maneuver these conversations I have to find out about these different aspects." And they did their due diligence. "Hey, here's a couple of books to read," or "Here's a podcast," or "you may want to pursue this credentialing because it'll throw you in." And that was the first time I got introduced to The Institute's the Associate in Risk Management. They're like, "Hey, if you learn the insurance side and you go through this training and you earn this credential, it's going to be four different, five different blocks that you've never even known existed." And I didn't. But learning that piece, that was just one scope of risk. And then at the same time, fortunately, the Air Force was just catapulting that risk side, so I was kind of neck and neck with what they were doing, and I was really learning, and I fell in love with the risk piece. I was like, "Man, this is big. This is big. This is big boy safety. I get it. I get this part."

Jill James:

No, it is. That's true. Is there any piece of it that you like better than the others? You had mentioned the financial and the operational pieces. Is there one that you're like, "Ooh, I'd just really love to get into that one"?

Sean Felder:

I did. Once I did the Associate in Risk Management from The Institutes, that's when I kind of slid over into the Project Management Institute, and they had a certification of project management, but in risk management. So it's a RMP. But once I fell in that, Jill, and understood the project, portfolio, and program side, that was my sweet spot. Once I seen, okay, this is the framework and this is how businesses look at risk, here's the thresholds, here's the appetite, once I start hearing that, I'm like, "Oh, that's how they making decisions." And you got to know, it's a money game on the outside, so a lot of different leaders are going to be extremely risk averse. So we're that piece to help them build that risk management plan. But once I've seen that, I'm like, this is something I really took a liking to. Again, I'm real keen on what falls under my strengths. I don't mind being uncomfortable, but at the same time, I know what keeps me guessing and I like to be challenged to that part also.

Jill James:

Yeah. Just listening to, and you had mentioned Myers-Briggs and StrengthsFinder, I'm going to take a wild guess that in your top five of the StrengthsFinder, learner might be one of your top five strengths.

Sean Felder:

That's good, Jill. You good.

Jill James:

Did I get that right? Or do you remember what your top five are?

Sean Felder:

It is. Learner is definitely one of them. But it wasn't always that. Believe it or not, Jill, I usually take this every three years, because again-

Jill James:

Oh, wow. Okay.

Sean Felder:

... that's how much we change. That's how much we change with just life in general. But leaner continuously is up there, and I'm like, "Okay, you read a cliche all the time, "You're going to be a lifelong learner," but it's really true.

Jill James:

Yeah. It is. Yeah.

Sean Felder:

It's a part of life also.

Jill James:

Yeah, and when you meet people who aren't learners, it always is sort of shocking to me because I just assume people want to learn things. And it's not true for everyone.

Sean Felder:

No, ma'am.

Jill James:

I mean, we all are different, right?

Sean Felder:

Mm-hmm.

Jill James:

Yeah. Sean, will you talk a little bit, you said you have mentors, and for the audience, I think that's something that, especially people who are coming up or people who are thinking about making changes in their career often are like, "How do you find these people?" or, "What is the benefit? Will you talk about that a bit with your mentors?

Sean Felder:

I will. It's one of those things, you kind of touching on it, Jill, we hear it all the time, but at the same time, there's not really a path to it. I can say, me personally, there is no one I went up to or there's no one who's come in my life that I have actually placed that title on. It just organically developed that way, and before I knew it, a couple of phone calls later, a couple of lunch dates, a couple of late night phone calls throwing information off each other, they actually became that mentor. But it's one of those things, we're going to bump our head. We're going to bump our head professionally, we're going to bump our head personally. But there's always some people out there who walk that path and they're just waiting to just give you that good wisdom. And a lot of times they're not going to come up to you, so it is a sense of seeking those elder statesmen or people that's been around. Or even now, I have mentors that's younger than me because I don't know this Millennial, Gen Z era. I don't know the TikTok issue now. I don't know how to. But their learning styles and the micro learning now and their attention span. And so I'm learning that because it's a totally different demographic. But it's extremely important. The Air Force rolled out a mentorship program six years ago and they made it a little bit more structured, and then they understood, okay, this has to flow a little better. So now you see more leaders getting involved and willing to put their self and time out there to help. And it's just saved so many stumbling blocks there. I think a good mentor is not going to necessarily give you that yellow brick road, but they're going to help you avoid a lot of the cracks that's in there, trying to guide you. And I enjoyed it. I took it on wholeheartedly because I had great mentors, and at the same time, I wanted to do the same. And it transformed me so much. I noticed becoming a mentor had given me so much joy and so much benefit, that I actually took that mentorship piece and used that to catapult me actually into coaching. And so I became a coach two years ago, simple for the fact of I wanted to understand how much more impactful I could be. Because I noticed with a mentor what I was doing, and what a lot of my mentors began to do until I moved them out of it, it was a lot of what they did. It was a lot of advice. And I noticed a lot of times I had the answers, I just had this narrow perspective and sometimes I needed to just think out loud. So I needed a person to kind of guide me into it, and that's where coaching came about. I went, "Oh, okay, so you mean to tell me a supervisor's going to tell you what you should do based on the culture, and then you have a mentor who's going to tell you what they did. And then you have a coach who's going to say, 'Okay, you actually have the information. Let me just give you a different perspective of how to look at it.'"

Jill James:

That's beautiful.

Sean Felder:

And so that one kind of stuck with me longer. And then, again, you have the sponsor. That's the one that's going to really show up for you when you're not even in the room. So once I start understanding those four lanes of influence, I'm like, "Ooh, so that actually plays off a person's strength also, because everybody information sticks based on the way they receive it."

Jill James:

Yeah. Sean, say again those four lanes. Did you call it four lanes of influence? Is that what you called it?

Sean Felder:

It's four lanes of influence, and the spectrum is you start with a supervisor. That's the person that's immediate to you, and a lot of times they're going to tell you what to do based on the culture of that organization. "Hey, this is how we do business around here." And then if you do have a mentor, so you move into the mentorship piece, that mentor is going to be also an asset, but a lot of times they're going to tell you what they did. And then if you transfer a little bit more up the continuum, you're going to a coach. A coach can easily say, "Hey, you have all the answers, you have the solutions. Right now it's just a little dim, so I just need to facilitate your mode of thinking." And real coaching is nothing but a bunch of questions. And by the time those questions are done, normally that person, because I've been on that receiving end, is already coming to a conclusion. But what I noticed, that information, for some reason stuck because I felt like I had developed the answer. And then as I moved up the chain a little bit, the supervisor didn't fare me well at that point, the mentor was good, but still ... But now what I was trying to get to, I needed someone to know my character who's in those rooms, who's going to speak up when I wasn't there. Now, that was my sponsor guy. He's the one that's, "Hey, that guy Sean, he's the guy." And you never know it. My last two significant roles have actually been through a sponsor, and to this day, I have an inkling who, but they never said it. But it's always this person kind of went to bat for you. They kind of vouch for you and say, "You'll be a great candidate for this."

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. Thanks for explaining those lanes.

Sean Felder:

No problem.

Jill James:

And I think about that too, especially as we're older into our careers, I feel like it's a great responsibility to be a sponsor. To look around and go, "Hey, somebody's missing here, and there's a talent right here and we should consider this person." So I read in your bio that you are an executive coach and advisor. How did you pursue that? I'm assuming you got a certification, you educated yourself to learn the things that you just laid out?

Sean Felder:

I did. Three years ago the Air Force developed a coaching culture facilitator program, and it went through an institute called Flatter. It's a real just top-tier coaching organization that services military contracts. It's a strenuous program. 14 weeks, over 70 hours. You learn the coaching modalities, framework, it's called the arch, you learn their way of thinking. You try to take yourself out of being a mentor. You actually do coaching demonstrations. And then you get stamped certified through different surveys, as in exams, so to speak. Sorry.

Jill James:

Sure, sure, sure.

Sean Felder:

They're going to watch you coach and then they're going to rate you based on if you've actually hit all the points that they rolled out to you. And so once I started doing that and became a department of the Air Force coach, it just took off from there. I loved it. It was one of those things that kind of fell again within the things that give me purpose and meaning, and it's the way I wanted to go out. Because I knew I was closing out my military career and always heard about being a servant leader, but I've always heard it real loosely of what it was. But it's still, when you see the tangible impact you can have in people, and it just so happened some of my civilian counterparts took notice to it, so it actually transferred well on the outside of the department of the Air Force too. And so I began coaching a couple of leaders from different organizations, different industries and companies, and again, they have all the answers. I'm just a conduit of trying to help them find it, and it just fills me up.

Jill James:

Beautiful. So is this a certification that civilians can get as well?

Sean Felder:

It is. If you work in the Department of Defense, it is a civilian aspect of it and it's a military aspect, but also it sets you up to get certified on ... If we look at the outside counterpart, so the International Federation of Coaching, IFC, they have an ACC, which is the Associate Coaching Certification, you already have enough hours to sit for that exam to be stamped on that side also.

Jill James:

Gotcha. Wow. Thank you for that.

Sean Felder:

No problem.

Jill James:

Those are things maybe as Emily, our producer, is listening, we can put some links in the show notes of the podcast so people can find some of that stuff.

Sean Felder:

Yes, ma'am.

Jill James:

Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. So Sean, you started to just give us a brief glimpse into when you get to the outside, and I had mentioned in your intro that you're going to be retiring this fall, and I think that you had said to me you think about maybe the phases of your life as a mountain. You want to talk about-

Sean Felder:

I do.

Jill James:

Yeah, talk about what's next, and what's this mountain business about?

Sean Felder:

I know. It's always funny hearing those repeated back, just like you did, because for some reason, us military people, we talk about the civilian world like it's a different side of world and life. They're like, "Yeah, I'm going to the other side." They're like, "Oh, are you going to die?" I'm like, "No, no, not that side." I'm like, "It's the other side. It's the dark side." But no, so man, maybe three years back, I think when you're maybe 36 months out from retiring, that's when everything really comes into perspective of like, "Man." And again, this is something I've known, this industry, this world, this military for 30 years. Since out of high school. I've never seen too much any other things. It's been the way I talk, walk, sleep, wake up, carry myself. It's a little bit of anxiety just noticing you're leaving that. But we also have, David Brooks is an author and he has this book called Second Mountain. It's so good. It's to the point of having different phases of life and what you serve for, it's community, being a mentor, just giving back. And he always says you reach that first mountain and that's the peak and you've made it, but then you're going to fall in this valley. And then that second mountain, that's where the magic happens because that's when you start really paying it back. That's when you start really paying it forward. So it's the second mountain, and the second mountain is that next chapter of life, what's going to be your big purpose, your big meaning for that one. Because now it's going to be another climb, but when you make it to that one, man, that's almost the epitome of life because you've seen so much. And normally that is about your second piece, your second chapter of age also for the season of life you are in. So you're going to look at that 45 through 75-year-old, and that's what I consider to be my second mountain up. Like now, the military was an amazing experience, but I'm really trying to disconnect as much as possible because I see a lot of my battle buddies that really struggle to leave that identity, because it can easily become an identity and they really pigeonholed themselves from moving into something that could be just as beneficial. And now that's what I'm really focused on, like you mentioned, the coaching or different pieces of the industry or how does risk serve me well. Or like we spoke briefly a couple of weeks ago about the consulting piece and just trying to learn as much as possible, to a point of, people say that cliche, "Really do what you love," and I think that really exists.

Jill James:

It does.

Sean Felder:

I'm hunting that down. Even if I don't love it in the beginning, it's only because it's new. So that's what I really put a label on. That's the second mountain, so to speak.

Jill James:

Yeah, I agree. I agree with that, and I think there's certain phases of life where the finding the peace you love that gives you the energy to keep going in a careers, sometimes it's fleeting. And sometimes you have to readjust multiple times, maybe even throughout a year, and sometimes it's years where you're like, "Oh, I'm just flying on this." I know for me, that's been my career where ... Anyway, I had a great week-

Sean Felder:

I love that. No, I love that.

Jill James:

I had a great week last week where I'm like, "Gosh, I love working with this team. I love the things we're doing." And then you're kind of always readjusting. So yeah, you are nearly at the base of your second mountain, or in the valley, as you spoke, right?

Sean Felder:

Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Jill James:

You're in the valley. Yeah, beautiful.

Sean Felder:

Absolutely.

Jill James:

Beautiful. Sean, you had said that on your side, where you are now, often people look out to the civilian world with, I think you said perhaps in admiration of EHS on the outside. Why do you think that is? Yeah, what is that about?

Sean Felder:

It's more of when we look at it, it's a sense of we know what we touch, or basically what's within our oversight, but if any safety professional within the Department of Defense or even the Army or the Navy, if they're really introspective and honest with themselves, we also know the 75% of stuff that we don't touch and that we're not exposed to. So we see people, as yourself and different individuals on the civilian side, and you see them with that title, "Director of," or "Doing this," or "Chief of," you really take heed to that. Because you know for that person to get where they are, they've touched a lot. They've been exposed to a lot. And it's nothing. I tell my guys all the time, "If you're on LinkedIn and you see someone who's in our world, you will be doing a disservice if you don't go to their actual page and look at their experience. And if they have anything worth interest, if you don't shoot them a cold DM, you've missed a world of opportunity." I can't tell you how many people I've reached out to just because what they're doing, I don't know that world, I don't know that industry, I don't know that scope, and I just want to know. And that's the opening to my DM, "Hey, I see you do such and such. That interests me. I am in this certain type of scope right now. I'm not exposed to that. I would just love to hop on a call and I'll just shoot them a Starbucks $10 gift card. We have a coffee chat and I'll just try to make sure, hey, whatever they have. And I'm all ears. Sometimes they're checking like, "Are you there?" "Oh, well, no, I'm here. I'm just listening to everything you're saying." So that's why I say we really hold an admiration on the outside because I've seen the Jill James and the Scott DeBows and the Abby Ferris and the Sabina Culley. I've seen all these people and I'm just in like, "Man, they really are the upper echelon of our industry." And that's what we're trying to get that understanding and that wisdom, so it can help also navigate our decision-making of what fit we want to move into also, Jill. That's the biggest thing, is that a lot of times ... It's an 89% stat right now, most of the first jobs anyone takes after retiring from the military, they quit. 85%.

Jill James:

Wow. Wow.

Sean Felder:

Because it's a lack of information. We just moving. We're so happy to get a check, we're moving in the first thing that calls us, and we don't want to waste that time like that. We don't want to waste that opportunity. And so that's one of the things that I really speak to my guys about, like, "Hey, the world is just open for accessibility right now, and people are just thirsty to give you the information."

Jill James:

Yeah, I think what you've pointed out, 85% is stunning, and also not surprising. I think about I worked in the government, that was my first career for the first 12 years was in the government, and I did the little teeny, weeny, weeny, weeny piece on a military base, and the structure is the piece that doesn't exist in the same way on, what you call the outside. And so that was the part that was so jarring to me when I was so used to the, let's call it the rules of engagement, the systems that were in place, the procedures, the mountains and mountains of, "I have a policy for this. This is how it's done, this is how you do it." And then you go into the private sector and much of that doesn't exist, or if it does exist, it changes or it's flexible or it's negotiable. And that is a complete different flex of the mind. And I know you and I have talked about that before. That was the thing that was the biggest aha for me. Like, "Oh gosh, this is a different world." And so I think it's so wise that you've spent these months considering how you can apply all of the fabulous things that you've learned, that square hole ... That square thing into the round hole, how is it going to fit? And it sounds like you're doing a masterful job schooling yourself to figure out how the gifts you have now can apply on the outside.

Sean Felder:

Thank you. Thank you. I'm trying. Trying, Jill. I'm trying it.

Jill James:

Yeah, you're doing it. You're doing it. It's great. It's great. It's a good piece of learning for anyone who's listening who may be in a similar situation. And same thing if you're switching industries. If you're going from a job in maybe a medical setting and all of a sudden you're going into a factory or agriculture, it's totally different systems and processes. Same thing. The things you're talking about apply. Yeah.

Sean Felder:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah, Sean, what else do you want to leave our audience with?

Sean Felder:

Man, again, just the opportunity. Thanks again, Jill. Just been amazing conversation, just to give people a little glimpse into what we do and see that we're similar and the fight is a fight, and it's total worker health. Saving people's lives, making sure the way people show up is the same way they leave mentally, physically, spiritually. We kind of double down on those same things. But other than that, just I think right now, and we're seeing it just based on the climate, that psychological safety is a big deal right now. It's a big deal, because I think it's so easy to look at the visible pieces, not just safety, but just what we can see. But that invisible aspect is right now even more important. And we have guys that's in my world, and just imagine you're working on aircraft, if you're not 120% locked in, that can be catastrophic. And so the philosophy we spilling right now, and we really try to on side of just human and organizational performance, it's still that psychological safety piece. You've seen it, Jill, particularly in our industry, we've been through everything, from Swiss cheese to the hierarchies of control, to the pyramid and behavior-based safety. Nothing. Right now it's all-encompassing to me, personally, is psychological safety because it covers everything. And it's not just safety, because we got to look at some of the ones that's spearheading it, your Amy Emersons and your Timothy Clarks, these guys are nothing tied into our world, but yet what they're preaching is our philosophy.

Jill James:

That's right.

Sean Felder:

And I just think that's where we at just based on the climate. So if anything, I could tell leaders or colleagues or coworkers or husbands, fathers, spouses, just take that time to really listen. I'm going to be totally honest and say my career took off, not in particular of a lot of stuff we talk about, my career took off when I began to listen. When I shut up and just start listening and didn't have an ulterior motive or something to spit back real quick, that's when I was able to really understand people and human nature and the internal struggles and the empathy side. And that's what makes a person extremely an asset when you're dealing with a safety professional, or you're just dealing with a person who just want to be instrumental within their organization.

Jill James:

Yeah. Right. And the psychological safety piece, people like to think about it as, sometimes I'm literally asked, "Can you take a class? Is there a training class on that?" It's how to human. I think of it as how to human.

Sean Felder:

Oh, I love that. I love that.

Jill James:

How to human and how to human for the common good. And I think the challenge of our profession is, A, spreading that word, but then how do we do it to scale? Which is a word that's used in industry all the time, like, "Okay, that's a good idea, but we can't do it one thing at a time. How do we do that to scale?" And I think that's the question right now, and maybe part of those answers are being curious, being a listener, understanding that a human being comes as a unique person having their own spiritual experience in a human body, and we're all not the same. And that we're all going to show up at work and in our relationships, however we woke up that day with the forces at play, whether it be pain or a headache or a conflict or a financial burden, or completely keyed in. And how does that mind work and how are they making decisions? And gosh, it seems overwhelming, but also it's being, like you said, quiet and listening.

Sean Felder:

I love it. That was my sneaky way this podcast, is getting that wisdom you just shared selfishly. Selfishly. Real selfishly. No, I love it.

Jill James:

Well, Sean, I don't know how to do it to scale and that's what we really need to be doing right now.

Sean Felder:

Yeah.

Jill James:

You know? Yeah. How do we be that for each other? Yeah. And maybe doing that at scale is teaching that to one person and the next person and the next person and the next person, right?

Sean Felder:

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's what it is. It's that easy. Just by you doing it, what you just gave me, Jill, is now I can give that to another 200 people, just the way you said that, because that's important.

Jill James:

Thank you, Sean. There's been a lot of good wisdom dropped here today and I feel like you and I are going to need a follow-up call, because I'm like, "Ooh, I want to ask him about this." Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time you've taken today, and wishing you so much luck on your exit and the valley and the next mountain.

Sean Felder:

Jill, I appreciate you. Thank you again for having me. This has been an amazing experience just to be able to share knowledge with you. And trust me, I took way more from you than I can give, because again, you're someone I do hold in high regard within this industry.

Jill James:

Thank you, Sean. Goes both ways. And thank you all for spending your time listening today, and more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human wellbeing, which is the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. Or if you prefer, you can read the transcript and listen at hsi.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like Sean and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer, and until next time, thanks for listening.