138: Think Inside the Box

Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded February 27th, 2026. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer. My guest today is Perry Silvey. Perry is safety manager at BT Construction in Colorado. He's been a leader in construction safety for over a decade, and is deeply involved in advancing safety efforts across the industry. He's also the founder and chairman of the Trenching and Excavation Safety Task Force, otherwise known as TEST, which is a volunteer group focused on raising awareness around trenching and excavation safety. In 2025, Perry was recognized as Safety Professional of the Year by ASSP, Colorado Chapter for his contributions toward advancing construction safety. Perry joins us today from Colorado. Welcome to the show.

Perry Silvey:

Thanks, Jill. Glad to be here.

Jill James:

Yeah. Perry, how did you get started in the construction industry, or maybe that's not where you started safety. How did things all get going for you?

Perry Silvey:

It's a funny story. Yeah, I actually was doing some maintenance work at a driving range, miniature golf, and I was actually laid off because there was a drought, and we weren't able to water, and I was in charge of the irrigation on that driving range.

Jill James:

Oh, wow, okay.

Perry Silvey:

And so, that next day I was looking into some work to do, and my stepdad is actually in construction, and he's an owner-operator of a box grader, and he'd been working for a local excavation company in the area. And he said, "Hey, why don't you go check out that company?" And I've been digging ditches for irrigation out of the driving range, so I thought, well, I could probably dig ditches for construction, so let's give that a try, and came to work that very next Monday, and it's almost history from there. Started as a laborer and-

Jill James:

Wow.

Perry Silvey:

... was able to get in, moving dirt, and was able to come in, and run equipment here eventually, and go through the process. That was the beginnings of my degree or of my excavation world that I live in.

Jill James:

Yeah, so when you went from excavation for irrigation systems, which that's pretty shallow excavating, right? Am I correct in thinking that way?

Perry Silvey:

Yes. Yeah.

Jill James:

Okay.

Perry Silvey:

Irrigation's usually a couple, few feet deep, and it's not too crazy.

Jill James:

Yeah. And then, you go into an excavation company. Was that a shock to the system where you're working with, I'm assuming, bigger equipment?

Perry Silvey:

Yes. And there was really no equipment in what I was doing before, so it was all handwork.

Jill James:

Oh, my gosh.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, out in the driving range, and people are hitting golf balls at you.

Jill James:

This really was a shock to the system.

Perry Silvey:

It really was a safety nightmare out on that driving range. And glad I'm no longer in that realm.

Jill James:

Oh, man. Yeah, so you got to this first construction job. What was your role when you first got there? Did they train you to be an operator, or where did you start?

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, I started really at the bottom just running a shovel, and a water hose, and just learning how to be a laborer. Didn't really know a whole lot about anything, so it was really ground floor, boots on the ground. There was really no real training. It was just like, go to work, go to this job, go to that job. And it was very dirty work. And I was in pretty good shape at the time, and it was good work for me.

Jill James:

Yeah. I don't know if I've ever asked this question where people are telling me about their first jobs. But, since you jumped right into an industry that is inherently dangerous to many, what ... You said you didn't have any training, but do you recall back then, was there safety training? I'm not going to be surprised if you say no, but I'm just curious. Yeah.

Perry Silvey:

There was some safety training. We actually had safety meetings once a week, and it was where you come in the office, or in the ... It was actually the shop, and we'd all have chairs set up in there, and every employee came in every single Monday-

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Perry Silvey:

... and just part of the process. And then, I remember going through some training, and I think I got my first OSHA 10 right around that same time.

Jill James:

Oh, wow.

Perry Silvey:

And that was neat to be a part of something like that, that the company cared enough to get me trained up on something that could help me.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Perry Silvey:

That was exciting.

Jill James:

That sounds really good. And I'm picturing the shop and the chairs in a circle, and the first thing that came to my mind was, this is corporate culture building.

Perry Silvey:

Yes, definitely.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. How did you get launched into safety from there?

Perry Silvey:

It was really ... Yeah, I had a degree, and my supervisor at the time, he was like, "Why are you out in the field if you have a degree?"

Jill James:

And what's your degree in?

Perry Silvey:

I said, "I have a degree, a liberal arts degree, and I have a degree in music." And he's like, "That's okay. You have a degree. You finished something. Why don't we see if you can come into the office and see if you can help us out in the office?" That was actually this first boss that I ever had that really was amazing. He gave me every opportunity along the way, and he said, "Hey, let's bring you in and let's help out the estimating department." I wasn't actually bidding any work. I was just coming in to do takeoffs, and quantified dirt materials, and different volumes, and helping out with a three-dimensional software system, and being able to quantify things, and give that information to the estimators, and did that for four or five years, and really, really enjoyed that work. It was great. Got into estimating eventually, started bidding work, and then landed my first job, and they said, "Oh, now you're a project manager." I'm like, "Oh, great."

Jill James:

Okay. What does that mean?

Perry Silvey:

[inaudible 00:06:59].

Jill James:

Yeah.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, so I got into project management, and then this all happened pretty quick, and then the downturn happened. Right in January of '09 is when I got laid off. I'd been with that company for about six years, and they'd really given me all these opportunities. And that boss that really helped me along the way, and really said, "Hey, let's keep giving you these opportunities." Eventually, he had to say, "Look, the downturn's happened, and it's just affecting the company too much." And there was about eight of us all at once that got laid off and-

Jill James:

Wow.

Perry Silvey:

... it was rough. Worked for a few other companies, and did some estimating, and project management at those other organizations. And several years later, I was able to have that phone call with that same individual, that same boss, and he says, "Hey, we're looking for a safety coordinator. Would you be interested in trying something new like that?" And I said, "Sure."

Jill James:

Yeah, and was he still working at the same company that you had worked at at that time?

Perry Silvey:

Yes.

Jill James:

Yeah, okay.

Perry Silvey:

And so, it was like, well, I already know this company. I already know a lot about this organization, so maybe it would be worth going back there. And since I already know a lot, it's just learning a new role within that same organization, so yeah, why not? Just give it a try. And so, right away, he got me into an OSHA 30, and just started really giving me all the training opportunities, and really trying to help me, and groom me, and try to get all this training there for me so that I can be able to learn how to be a safety professional, really. And he then invited me, or let me see if I can explain this, sorry.

Jill James:

Yeah, it's okay.

Perry Silvey:

He actually was the one that said, "Hey, why don't you go to this industry group roundtable?" He's like, "Found this round table, and it might be good for you to check out." And it turned out to be the Construction Safety Round Table, the Construction Safety Group of Denver, and this group is amazing. It's a bunch of safety professionals, insurance people. It's just a round table group that we're able to talk between the group and be able to have even some therapy sessions really. And it was back in 2012 when I started attending these, and it was right after I got into my new role. And just seeing the mentors in that group, and I'm still talking with these same guys all these years later, and it's a great camaraderie, and everybody's willing to help everybody else, just a great group there. Really, really enjoy being part of the industry groups there.

Jill James:

Yeah. I think that's a really good shout out for our listeners. If they're like, "Huh, wonder if I have an industry group in my area." Yeah, and I've been part of one too, Perry. Sometimes they're ... I'm just thinking for the listeners, how do they find this? You can try the good old Google safety groups or workplace safety groups. Sometimes they're, especially in non-metropolitan areas, sometimes they're stood up by National Safety Council, like the state organization might have some of them. Do you have any ideas of how people might be able to find them too, because these do exist?

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, good point. I think starting with your local ASSP chapter is a really good place to start.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

This is actually what this group has turned into now is it's really a group of us from the couple different chapters here locally in Colorado that utilize this round table and great way to then have, again, crosstalk between at least construction safety professionals. But, ASSP being what it is, you're going to have all different industries-

Jill James:

Right.

Perry Silvey:

... that you'd be able to find the group that would work for you. Definitely would start there, and just go to the ASSP website, and search for your industry, and see if there's any groups that might be willing to take you in to chat with them.

Jill James:

Yeah. Your group didn't start out with ASSP, but you meld together over the years.

Perry Silvey:

Yes, exactly.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, thank you, thank you for that piece. Okay, so you get the job, you get some mentors. Do you remember what you thought it was walking into it versus what you learned it was, or do you feel like you were clear-eyed?

Perry Silvey:

Going into it, it was really interesting, because as a project manager, we were expected to give the safety meeting, and it was just the way our boss had worked. It was his little trick. He's like, "Oh, you want to go on vacation? Well, if you want to go on vacation, you're going to have to give the safety meeting here this next time it comes around."

Jill James:

Wow.

Perry Silvey:

Of course, we all had a chance at giving the safety meeting eventually. Yeah, we had at least a little experience with it, and it definitely helped me understand when we were given the safety meeting, we needed to do a little research. We needed to understand what the topic was like, okay, the topic this time is cold weather safety. Let's do a little research, put a little PowerPoint together, and share that with all the employees in that shop, with all those folding chairs, and help them out. I had a little bit of experience in doing that, so it was really not my first time dealing with safety. It was just having that be my main role. That was what was different. And again, trying to learn how to do that took a little bit of time, and that industry group, that round table group is really where I was able to bounce ideas off of people, and really try to learn what it means to be a safety manager.

Jill James:

Yeah. When you were getting started in this, who did you learn about soil classifications and all of that stuff from? Did that come out of your OSHA 30, or this industry group, or had you already gleaned some of that from your previous time working with the same company?

Perry Silvey:

That's a good question. It was a combination, and it did start back as a laborer, and going through that OSHA 10 class. And then, we had some trenching and excavation safety training that was put on by one of the local vendors. And I talked to this individual every so often to remind him, "Hey, back in 2003, you were my first trainer in excavation safety, and look at where we're at now."

Jill James:

Wow, that's cool. Yeah, that is great, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, neat to reminisce on that, and be able to talk through some of those interesting moments in time.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah, you have such an interesting industry that you're working in, and I admire the work that excavators do so much, so thanks for letting me ask those detailed questions. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so what happens next in your career?

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, had worked for that same company again for another five years, and just continued to work through some of those challenges, working with an organization that's established, and they have a national safety director, and just working through some things. They did end up having some ownership turnover. And so, just the way the leadership turned out, it was like, "Well, this is not going in the direction that I was hoping it would." And so, at that point, made some decisions and moved on. Worked for another organization for a little bit, and then, was still going to these industry group meetings. And then, I started attending this National Utility Contractors Association that was a meeting that we were having that was once a month, and it turned into this round table that really matched that same Construction Safety Group at Denver group. But, instead of it being general contractors, and insurance people, and a high level safety, it then turned into this, hey, let's have a safety discussion just about underground utilities and excavation. And so, we ended up starting that group through NUCA of Colorado, and that actually became a really good group. We've been doing that ever since. And it's been great to be able to have these conversations with people really similar in our roles, and have a good crosstalk that way. Ended up meeting who's my current boss at one of those meetings, and it's just been a great relationship. And so, I found this company here, BT, and it's just been amazing to be a part of this organization. I've been here about six and a half years-

Jill James:

Wow.

Perry Silvey:

... and just an amazing culture here that I've never experienced before.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. That's sometimes rare in our industry, so that's wonderful. That's wonderful. I want to shout out for the listeners, you mentioned the National Utility Contractors Association, and so, the industry associations of which there are many, that is another way for people to get involved. You were talking about the construction safety roundtable as one piece, but the actual association for your industry, those exist too. You're talking about that. I've been part of one, this is going to sound funny, but I worked in the poultry industry for a while, and there was an industry group for the poultry industry, both chicken and egg, and also funny. It just sounds funny to say. And then, like with you, it branched off into the National Safety for the Poultry Industry, which was an industry group of all of us doing the same kind of work in the same kind of industry. And so, people who are listening, if you're not familiar with industry groups, that's something else you can search for. And within them, there's often a safety element. Yeah. I'm glad you found that, and you found a job that way too. Another good tip.

Perry Silvey:

Yes.

Jill James:

Yeah. I don't know if it's too soon for me to ask you this question in your story, but I'm just going to put it out there in case it's the right time. I know you wanted to talk about the Matrix movie. Is this premature, or is this a good time?

Perry Silvey:

No.

Jill James:

Okay.

Perry Silvey:

No, this is great.

Jill James:

Okay.

Perry Silvey:

It's just a funny story back when I was actually still working at that golf course, it was actually on a Wednesday, and it was when that Matrix movie came out. And so, I was working with an individual that says, "Hey, let's go watch this movie on our lunch break." I was like, "Oh, are you sure? Boy, I don't know if we could do that," just breaking the law a little bit at the company. And it was funny, because I also worked at a movie theater at the same time. I was working two jobs, and the movie theater wouldn't allow me to watch that movie until it had been out for a couple of weeks. I was like, "Oh, that's cool. I can watch a movie because this person that I worked with has tickets, and just ironic." And so, I was like, "Well, okay, so let's go ahead and go watch this movie at lunchtime." And then, I get back from this lunch movie, and my boss at the golf course pulls me in, and this was maybe two hours after I get back, and he says, "Yeah, we're going to have to lay you off." And so, I was like, at the time, I was like, oh, no, he found out that I was at this movie-

Jill James:

Oh, no.

Perry Silvey:

... and they're firing me for taking a long lunch break.

Jill James:

Uh-huh.

Perry Silvey:

Turns out he had no idea that we went on this movie lunch break, and he was just laying me off, because of the drought with the fact that I'm an irrigation guy, and they turned the water off because of this drought, so they couldn't really justify keeping me on the payroll. Just an interesting story that I just thought was an ironic thing. And it's like, okay, and now I remember that date, because I remember when that movie came out, so I know exactly what day I started.

Jill James:

And it was a Wednesday, you said?

Perry Silvey:

Yes. And so, I started that very next Monday. And so, it was like, I know the date. May 19th was when I started. It was that Monday. You back it up and you can figure out the date of the movie when it came out. Just a funny story.

Jill James:

That is funny and ironic. And also, you only missed like what, two days of pay before you got your next gig. That's amazing.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah. It's a nice little vacation, and the movie was good.

Jill James:

Yeah, right? You ended the job on a high note, playing hooky for a movie.

Perry Silvey:

Yes.

Jill James:

Oh, that's awesome. Hey, back to BT for a second, where you work now. I wanted to ask you about working with leadership, because you said you haven't worked with a leadership ... It's exceptional where you're at right now. Talk with us with the audience about what that looks like when safety is driven from the top.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, it's amazing here. There's just a unique group here that really, really does believe in safety. And the way that they really stand behind that is they have weekly meetings with us. That's something I've never experienced before. When I was at my other organizations, it was like a real struggle to actually find time to meet with my boss, or with the president, or anybody in top leadership. I'd put something on the calendar, either they would forget about it, or whatever, and it was just always a challenge to get in front of them. Whereas here, when I first started here, they were like, "Yeah, you're going to be meeting with us every week, and it's just on the calendar, and it's just part of how we do things here." And they want to learn. They want to hear from us what we're seeing. They want to be able to be a part of the process of implementing things. And it's their program ultimately, and we're just there to help them, and to support them, and be a resource, not only for the top leaders, but a resource for the people in the field. Just an amazing culture where it's really them leading the way, and we're just helping them, and making sure that we do our job to help the team.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah, and when you say that safety is a resource, and not a burden, do you have any examples that you would like to share about what that looks like or acts like tactically for you?

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, it's great here where the guys will call us, right? If they need something, they're calling us. We're like the support team, the support staff, and we're able to then come through for them. If they need something, we're there for them. And that's just not something I've experienced anywhere else. It's usually me having to pry into their business, and try to figure out what they need.

Jill James:

Right.

Perry Silvey:

And it's just not the case here. There's just an amazing culture where we get to be that resource. We get to be the people there to help them and come to their need.

Jill James:

How lucky, how lucky. Have you ever asked any of the founders how they happen to make that happen?

Perry Silvey:

No, that's a great question. Yeah, definitely worth discussing.

Jill James:

I know, right? I feel like we should get a group of leaders together who just somehow are like that. We could probably crack the code for everybody else.

Perry Silvey:

That'd be great.

Jill James:

Since it's written about constantly, and spoken at every conference we ever go to is how to get leadership buy-in.

Perry Silvey:

Yes.

Jill James:

And you have it. That's wonderful. Perry, I mentioned at the introduction that you're the founder of a task force called the Trenching and Excavation Safety Task Force. Tell us how that came to be and what it is.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, so there was an unfortunate incident that happened. It was another company that was north of us, North Denver area. There was two people that had gotten into a 15-foot deep trench, and they were down there without any sort of trench protection, and 15 foot deep, that's a lot of dirt, and the dirt collapsed on them. And so, fire department came out, and one of those individuals was able to talk to the firefighters through a pipe in the ground for a couple of hours, and they actually got ahold of his significant other, and she was able to come out to the project site, and talk to him before he passed away. And so, that incident, that really bothered me deep.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

And the other frustration was that they had a trench box on site, but they chose not to use it-

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

Just real heartbreaking there. And then, we found out probably a month or two later she had their baby.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Perry Silvey:

And so, just real sad situation that this individual perished, and he could have been a dad, and just real sad. It was actually the very next week after this incident occurred, we were at the AGC of Colorado Safety Council.

Jill James:

And so for people who don't know AGC, it's Associated General Contractors.

Perry Silvey:

Yes.

Jill James:

Okay, yep, keep going.

Perry Silvey:

Yep, so we were in that room with about 60 safety professionals or so. A lot of us in that room, and it had come up about this incident. We like to talk about incidents, past incidents, lessons learned, things that we could be able to be able to talk amongst each other, and try to help each other out. And so, this incident came up, and we were talking about it, and there was of course a lot of frustration in the room, and everybody's thinking about what happened, and how it could be prevented. And then, we were about ready to move forward with the meeting, and I said, "No, I'm not ready to move forward." I stood up in that meeting and I said, "Guys, we got to do something. This type of incident, we can't be seeing this kind of thing reoccur." It's a really unfortunate incident, and I want to do something to try to prevent something like this from occurring. I asked the group, I said, "Who wants to meet with me after this, and see what we can do?" And there's quite a few of us, probably 20 or 30 of us that met in the room next door. We started meeting weekly at first, and then, eventually started meeting monthly. And actually, we're still meeting now, but we're meeting quarterly, and we're still just trying to get some ideas, and try to figure out how can we prevent trench collapse fatalities is really our main goal. We started the Trenching and Excavation Safety Task Force, also known as TEST, and we almost immediately came up with this website, thinkinsidethebox.info.

Jill James:

Love it.

Perry Silvey:

And it was this idea of think inside the box came from our OSHA area director that was part of our group right away. He had this little two inch sticker, and it just had the words on it, think inside the box. And he's like, "What do you think of this idea? This could be something that we can be able to help with an awareness campaign." I said, "That's a great idea." Soon after that, we actually found a picture of the trench box, and then we put the words think inside the box inside the box.

Jill James:

Gosh, beautiful.

Perry Silvey:

That actually seemed to be a decent message, and one that's like think inside the trench box, but also, we don't need to come up with any new ideas. We don't need to think outside the box.

Jill James:

Right.

Perry Silvey:

We've got the right protective system is out there. We just need to do what's already established and do the right thing. Think inside the box was just a natural concept that made sense, so that's what we ended up going with. And we've got social media pages now, and we've got them all the same tag. If you search for @ExcavateSafe, you'd be able to find all of our social media pages. We've got a really good following on LinkedIn, thousands of followers on there, and great to be able to communicate to people, and have ways to be able to raise awareness, and hopefully save lives in the trenches.

Jill James:

When did you say you started this?

Perry Silvey:

That was back in 2019. It was actually April of 2019 when that incident occurred, and just a week later is when we started that task force.

Jill James:

Fantastic, fantastic. You said you continue to meet regularly. You came up with some of these items. What else have you been able to do? Do you have partners? Do you speak at ... What other things has the task force done?

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, so really partners is where we've had great success. There's organizations that are behind this, and have really helped to grow this mission. Our mission is to create industry awareness, and drive insight into trenching excavation safety. And we want to collaborate without any organizational or geographic boundaries in an effort to improve day-to-day safety for field workers. That mission is something that a lot of our partners have been standing behind. And a lot of times, these partners are there to help fund some of this, because we don't have any funding. We're not a nonprofit or anything. We're just a volunteer group, so we don't really have any money. We don't have any way to do things. We've called on certain organizations. There was a local insurance company that actually came up with the logo, and they spent two people's time for eight hours to help build this logo for us. And we've got all the different versions of the logo now, and they volunteered their time to be able to help us with that. And other organizations helped us by promoting things on their websites. And we've been able to speak at some of these organizations, and be able to share trench safety messages, not only in our state of Colorado, but we've now been able to talk in all states, or most states. It's been really amazing to be able to get in front of a group, and be able to talk about this, and raise this awareness, and be able to share this message with as many people as we can.

Jill James:

What kind of groups do you normally get in front of, or does it really vary? Is it sometimes individual companies, or sometimes heavy equipment companies, or association groups? What does that look like?

Perry Silvey:

Most of the time, it's industry groups.

Jill James:

Yeah, okay.

Perry Silvey:

AGC and then NUCA. And then, we've actually talked with the Colorado Contractors Association, CCA, and then NACSA, which is the North American Excavation Shoring Association, and then Blue Book. The Blue Book Network, we actually did a little bit of training with those guys.

Jill James:

I'm not familiar with them.

Perry Silvey:

The Blue Book is actually an organization that it's a place where a lot of contractors would go, and they might be able to find training and some other resources through the Blue Book network. And so, we were able to do ... During COVID, we were able to do some training online, and that was a great partnership with an individual out of Texas who was able to do bilingual training. And he hooked us up with the Blue Book, and there were some really great things we were able to do there.

Jill James:

Wow. We have a lot of wonderful links to be able to put in the show notes for this episode, Perry. Thank you so much for that. I'm taking notes, and Emily, our producer who's listening is probably doing the same thing, so we'll have a lot of resources for listeners. Yeah. What a passion project, Perry. What has it-

Perry Silvey:

It's been a lot of fun.

Jill James:

Yeah, I was amazed listening to you rattle off the top of your head the mission statement. You've said that a lot.

Perry Silvey:

I have. Yeah. It's part of my vernacular now, for sure.

Jill James:

Yeah, so is the task force made up of a steering committee now, or do you bring new people in, or what does that look like? How do you keep something like this alive?

Perry Silvey:

That's a great question. It's really been my passion, and then I continue to pluck people out of the air where I see them. And so, I'll invite them in to be a volunteer and help us. There's been a couple individuals that I would consider subject matter experts that are online a lot. I see what they're posting and I'm engaging with them a little bit, engaging with our LinkedIn pages, and some of the think inside the box groups. And then, I'll invite them, and I'll ask them, "Hey, would you be interested in helping us out and being a volunteer in this mission that we have?" And it's been great to see some of these people step up. And some of these guys that have been doing this for a really long time, are then pivoting and helping us in their unique ways. And it's been great to be able to get their help. And one individual is amazing. He's on there all the time posting things and commenting things. And then, he started commenting using our page. I gave him admin access to our page so that he's basically doing all the same things just through our page. And he gets further reach with that because we've got thousands of followers that are seeing what he posts. It's been good to get more engagement on the online side of things.

Jill James:

Wow. It sounds like you, in terms of getting people to be part of the task force, when you say you're noticing people and inviting them in, you're doing exactly what that first boss did for you. You're paying it forward.

Perry Silvey:

Definitely.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Perry Silvey:

That's a good way to put it. I hadn't thought of it that way, but yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's really beautiful. What a great passion. I don't know the answer to this, and I'm going to ask you the ... You had said we don't need to think outside the box because everything ... We know what we need to do to keep people safe in this industry. And I wanted to ask, in your tenure in the excavation and trenching industry, have there been any new safety methods to be used, or deployed, or equipment? Has there been any evolution that you've seen that's just different that people might not know about?

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, there's definitely been some advancement. There's a newer organization that is starting to become a little more mainstream, and just being able to see some new advancement on trench safety tools and equipment, it's great to see that. And I don't know if I should be telling their name on here or not, so I'm being careful not to bring up too many company names and things of that nature, but-

Jill James:

Well, if there's resources for our listeners that can advance safety, I think that's okay, Perry.

Perry Silvey:

Oh, okay. Cool.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. We don't want to keep safety a secret. Go ahead.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, I know. It's just one of those, when you talk about brand names and stuff, I don't know how much we want to-

Jill James:

Yeah, your discretion, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, so there's an organization that's been interesting to see some of the advancement that they've been doing. And they've got boxes that have a newer way to put together. They've got some safer ways to get in and out of the trenches, and some interesting things that just haven't really been out there. And so, it's neat to see advancement. There's other organizations too, just interesting to see some new styles, and new techniques, and things that are able to be utilized. And then, there's still the original trench box that was something that was designed and built 30, 40 years ago that still works. And I think that's ... Even though there's some newer things out there, it's still a trench box, it still works. It's a steel structure that has spreaders that attach them together. And even there's aluminum boxes, but it's all still devices that work. And if we just remember to use them, or remember to be inside of them when we are in a trench, then the trench won't collapse on us. And I think just the concept is think inside the box is just, it's universal, and contractors stand behind it, and the vendors stand behind it, and engineers. And it's really a universal concept. And even the logo is something that is universal. It's a rust-colored logo, and it's intentional, because all steel trench boxes, eventually, they turn that color, right?

Jill James:

Mmm, yes.

Perry Silvey:

They might have started with all the different colors of the rainbow that all these vendors have. But, eventually, they all turn that same color. Really, that was the intentional color that we chose for that logo because of that universal concept.

Jill James:

Yeah, I can see it in my head right now. I could see ... Yeah, I've done plenty of inspections as an OSHA investigator with trenching and excavating contractors. And then, just once you see a trench box, you notice them every time you go anywhere where there's construction activity, and that's the color you see.

Perry Silvey:

Yes.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah, wow. Maybe someone who's working in the industry, in the same industry, who's trying to figure out their path, and how to advance the safety in their organization, you've given really great resources, Perry, and I'm wondering maybe you and I can think of some of the ways that you've advanced practices in your career. I'm personally thinking about people who've said to me, "We're just going to be down there for a minute. We got to just make this one connection. I'll be right back out again." Yeah, I bet you've heard that or heard stories about those kind of things in your career.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, that's definitely a challenge that we run into. And this business is linear, and you got to put a pipe together, and you got to lay the next pipe, and you got to keep going in a linear type of a method. And so, it tends to be something where production is king. And so, there's a lot of that pressure on efficiency, and making sure this stuff gets done in a timely manner. If it takes time to install a trench box, well, that time could be utilized putting pipe together and making more money.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Perry Silvey:

There's definitely that challenge, and that concept of having to think about production, and try to remember to think of safety as well. And sometimes, safety takes the backseat. And so, for us, that can be a challenge at times, and you don't have to remember that, no, we have to do it right. And we don't have that challenge at this company.

Jill James:

Right, right.

Perry Silvey:

But, we think about some of these smaller organizations.

Jill James:

Exactly.

Perry Silvey:

And I think that's the challenge that our task force is continuing to really work on is how do we get in touch with those smaller organizations? How can we have those smaller organizations listen to this podcast, and be a part of these industry groups, and start to get plugged in the safety realm? And that's really a challenge for us. That would be, how can we find the place for those two men in a backhoe-

Jill James:

Agreed.

Perry Silvey:

... to try to save their lives?

Jill James:

Right, right. Yeah, of the collapses that I've investigated in my career, that's almost exclusively what they all were, the two men in a backhoe, as you put it.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah, wow. Hm. Perry, what else do you want to talk about with regard to the task force, and/or anything in the industry? It's not often I have a subject matter expert that's this specific. I really appreciate you being here, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

Yeah, I appreciate you having me here. This is great. This task force has been a pretty big passion of mine, and one that we're continuing to try to find creative ways to bring this message to as many people as we can. We've been talking at different places around the country, and being able to address this at a different level. One of the talks I did for the ASSP, the large PDC, Professional Development Conference, was actually how to start a task force, how to grow the task force, and how to maintain a task force. And so, it was great to be able to share some of that, and really bring it to more of a level of, hey, it's not necessarily trenching excavation we're going to talk about. It's more the method of how to build something, how to build this group of volunteers. And so, it was an interesting concept to be able to share some of our successes in this group that we've built. We're not done yet. And I don't know, I hope someday we come to a place where we can hang our hat and go, "We've done a great job, but I think we're just going to continue driving this grassroots effort as much as we can, and help as many people as we can try to do it right."

Jill James:

Yeah. Do you know if you're speaking at any conferences in 2026?

Perry Silvey:

I did not get accepted to speak at the ASSP 2026. I'm bummed about that. I had two different talks that I submitted, so I'm not speaking at that.

Jill James:

I submitted two as well, got accepted for one, but not the other, so we're in good company, Perry.

Perry Silvey:

[inaudible 00:44:50].

Jill James:

Anyway, listeners, it happens. You submit for these things, and it is pretty rigorous, and we don't all get in, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

It is, yes. I have been asked to speak at one conference. There's a conference for firefighters actually, and it's a technical rescue conference up in Midstate New York.

Jill James:

Yeah, okay.

Perry Silvey:

I spoke there last year, and that was good, and they invited me to come back, so I may take them up on that one. It's an interesting group, right? It's rescuers-

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

... and it's a group that's actually got a trench rescue track that they go through and learn how to do those technical rescues on trenches. Interesting way to bring the TEST message into that conference, so we'll see how that goes again.

Jill James:

Yeah, to come at it from that angle, and their safety doing the rescue.

Perry Silvey:

Yes.

Jill James:

Yeah, interesting.

Perry Silvey:

Exactly, yep.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, hm. That's fabulous. Well, Perry, this has been so great. And I'm looking at notes I've taken while we've been talking. And for listeners who are maybe starting their career, or maybe changing industries that they're working in, the reminder that wherever you are geographically, to see if you happen to have a safety round table like you're talking about, Perry, I think that's a fabulous tip. Being part of an industry group for your industry, and trying to see if there is an EHS element to it, I think is fantastic. You talked about the AGC, the Associated General Contractors, that's all over the nation as well, and many chapters, and they put on great conferences.

Perry Silvey:

Yes.

Jill James:

I've spoken at some of those. They're wonderful too. And I think that my favorite thing you said was, "I stood up."

Perry Silvey:

Yes. I really had to take a stand, if you will-

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

... because this whole concept, just it didn't sit well with me, so I needed to stand up, and I needed to do something, and take action. And I think that's really what that was, is to really stand up, take action, and bring people with me.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

That's really what I've been doing this whole time, and I don't want to give up. It's important enough-

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah.

Perry Silvey:

... that we need to find these new ideas, and see who can help us to really bring this to light, and save lives. Maybe there's a task force, for those of you listening on here that you want to start, and you're frustrated by something, and you want to see ... Whatever that is, you want to see that change, and you want to be a part of that change, or you want to lead that change. And some people don't like the word change. For us, we don't like the word change. We use the word enhancement, because we know that there's ways that we can enhance what we're doing-

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Perry Silvey:

... maybe still make some improvements-

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Perry Silvey:

... so really important. And again, if you've got something in your mind that you're thinking about, and you're like, "I'm frustrated by this, I want to do something, I want to stand up," then stand up, and-

Jill James:

That's right, that's right.

Perry Silvey:

... you never know who's going to help you and who's going to follow you.

Jill James:

Beautiful. Beautiful. What a great way to end. Perry, that's fabulous, and we all have that power within us. Yeah. Thank you for what you're doing.

Perry Silvey:

Thanks, Jill.

Jill James:

Yeah. Thanks for being on the show. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human wellbeing, which is the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed, and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. Or if you prefer, you can read the transcript, and listen at hsi.com. We'd really love it if you could leave a rating, and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like Perry and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.