Jill James:

Welcome back. This is the Accidental Safety Pro, brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded January 26th, 2023. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer. My guest today is Carla Davis-Madgett, an HSE professional in the 38th year of her career, which has spanned the refinery, chemical, oil, gas, and aerospace industries with global responsibility. Carla is a chemical engineer and has a master's degree in project management. Carla joins us today from Houston. Welcome to the show.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Thank you very much, Jill.

Jill James:

Well, I'm so happy to have you here and thrilled that I was able to connect with you. You and I met at a Verdantix conference a couple months ago, where you keynoted the event, and I just loved hearing from you and really appreciate your willingness to come on the podcast.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Thank you. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. Thank you.

Jill James:

You're welcome. So Carla, where does your HSE story begin? How far back in the way back machine do we go?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

So out of the 38-year career, my HSE career started back in around 2000 and probably '06 or '07, where I chose to not pursue a degree in HSE. I chose not ... I didn't want a profession in HSE, but I was actually convinced from a person who I have a lot of respect for, who was my vice president and now my personal friend and mentor, to pursue a role in process safety. And it started because when I was working for BP, when the ERP systems were coming into vogue, I actually was a global planner at the time for chemicals. And I started working to support that role and supported about three manufacturing sites. One in Belgium, we were building one in Canada, and one in Texas. And I was asked at the time to take on a project to build the work processes for the ERP system that was getting ready to be put in place for planning. So went on a project, did that work, and then started getting involved in work processes and started working in work processes for manufacturing sites because at that time the ERP systems were coming into play to support maintenance and production operations and that sort of thing. So supported that. And then I got recruited by Shell because Shell was going on a journey to put in work processes to improve their process safety performance. They had some pretty significant incidents and the person that actually hired me became a zealot. He was a protégé of Michael Hammer and he started really stuttering the impact of work processes and how it could improve and build consistency, build repeatability, and ultimately be able to predict when work was being done well and when it was not being done well, so that we could start building some asset integrity processes to support things like inspection, maintenance, operation, metallurgy, process control, those sorts of things. And I did that work working at the Norco Manufacturing Complex. And I did that for about four years. But I was not in HSE. I was actually a manufacturing excellence manager. And ...

Jill James:

Sure.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

... so I got a tap on the shoulder from this person who recruited me into Shell and he said, "Carla, I saw this job and I thought of you," because I was actually applying for another job, I wanted this capital manager job. I thought, "Oh, it'd be cool to be a venture capitalist." And this job was for process safety assurance. And I looked at the job and I was like, "Yeah, I don't want anything like that. That's not my thing. I don't want safety." So I told him, I said, "I don't want it." Now, it was a promotion. I said, "I don't want the job, not interested."

Jill James:

And what did you think safety was, Carla?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

I thought safety ...

Jill James:

At that time, yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

... was building programs, putting up banners, doing behavioral safety slogans, and putting things on coffee mugs. And I was like, "That's not me. I'm a problem solver, and I don't want to do that kind of thing." So then a friend of mine who he had assigned to be my personal buddy called me to Port Arthur to have a conversation and he was trying to talk me up about the job and I told him, I said, "I'm not going to take it. I don't want it." And he told me, "Go talk to this other gentleman. He'll give you a feel for this capital planning job that you want." He said, "Carly, it's not you. I just don't think it's you." He said, "That's not your personality." And I was like, "How are you going to tell me what is my personality? I don't want a process safety job." So finally, we went round and round and I said, "I came to the conclusion that the decision had already been made." And so I said, "Do I have a vote on this?" And he said, "No." I said, "Okay. Well, then you should have said it from the beginning. I'll go ahead and take the job." And the role was actually put in place. This was right after BP Macondo because they had set up these process safety assurance roles for Shell, where you would go around and do assessments around the globe and understand if they had production stability and if their processes are in place. And then you would go in, work directly with the people and help them fix it. Now, my background, I tend to be a person ... I love ambiguity. I love complex problems. In my own personal life, I love puzzles. I love murder mysteries because I love solving stuff. And-

Jill James:

This is part of your personal traits that you were [inaudible 00:06:40]-

Carla Davis-Madgett:

This is my personal trait. The messier, the better.

Jill James:

Okay.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Right?

Jill James:

Fantastic.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And even in my personal life, I took on some of the more complex problems because I love to figure stuff out. And sometimes I'm good at it. And when I'm looking at movies, many times, I'm not. And so when I took the job, now this is a job where I had to go in and within two to three weeks, I had to go in, I would travel all over the world, Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Europe, the Caribbean, the United States, Canada. And I would have to go in and then within two to three weeks, I would have to understand what was broken and I would have to convince people, who sometimes didn't realize it, that they had problems that needed to be fixed. And then I'd have to work with them to come up with solutions.

Jill James:

So Carla, when you were ... So three weeks, that's ...

Carla Davis-Madgett:

That's moving.

Jill James:

... that's moving, that is moving. And so did you lean into your background in project management? I'm just thinking of the tools that you use and you have personal traits like the messier, the better. But when you looked at it and went, "Okay, I see the issues," what was your approach and the tools that you use to try to make some sense out of what they were going to do next?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

So there were tools in place that were built into the processes for this, right? So we used the standard set of tools.

Jill James:

Okay.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And it gave you the baseline. It told you what were the fundamental basics that needed to be in place, that was essentially the definition of good, right? But what I learned from ... If I compare the first two to three assessments to the last two to three, what I learned is that that tool was the foundation to get you off the ground because you had to do that within the first two to three days, right? But the magic came when you got the leaders engaged. They had to be a part of the solution. They had to own it. They had to feel that there were issues. They had to have a really good feel for what that risk could translate into. That is where the skill came in. So it started where ... To me, what I learned, over the course of these, that it was very important to get that leader involved. I remember one of the assessments I did because I would always have a meeting with that leader to get their understanding of what they thought was actually happening, right? And then I would go out in the field to validate if that was the case. And I was talking to a one gentleman and I started going through and telling him some of the things I was going to look at their operation, their production systems. I was going to look at their maintenance systems, inspection systems, their corrosion metallurgy system process control. And so he said, "Is this free?" I said, "Yeah, it's free to you." And he sat back and he looked on his whiteboard, he started writing things on the board and started telling me all the things he wanted me to look at and all the things he thought was broken. I had meetings where I would check in with them to give them an update on where I was, he would challenge me, "You're not going deep enough." And that was what I learned was the success of getting that leader to the place where they once saw the value in it. And then I built a reputation for being able to do it. So then people knew I could do it. So then towards the end, people knew what I was coming to do and I got leadership involvement and leadership support. There was one I did in the North Sea because they had some issues. And the leader said, "I want to understand what" ... He said, "I do a lot of things. I want to understand, what am I missing? What am I blind to?" So that gave me something to work with is what was blocking his view, right? And so I went into the facility, spent four nights offshore in the North Sea, was scared to death because I had this image of the Deadliest Catch, which was not the truth. And walked around with people, started looking at their systems, and at the end, I started learning how to craft the message to tell the story, right? So what I did is I took these slides. And on the back page, I listed all the things that you should do to have a stable management system, right? And then I took these clouds. And the clouds were all the things they were doing under the guise of mitigating risk. And they were actually causing the blindness because what was happening is they were going in and doing a lot of work, let's say they had a maintenance process that they had to put in place because the equipment needed repair, but they didn't have the time or money to repair it. So they put in this interim mitigation, right? Well, it turns out that interim mitigation turned out to be more operator surveillance or more inspection. They had so many of those things in place that if you added up all the hours, there weren't enough people on the platform to do all the work. So what happened is it wasn't being done. So the risk mitigation became a risk. And I started putting all those clouds on. So then I said, "I'm going to show you why you're blind." And I started to show him what you should do with the management system. And I started hitting the PowerPoint presentation or the down button and the cloud would pop up. And by the time we got done, everything was clouded and he could see nothing. And he paused and the room was silent for probably felt forever, but it was probably about a minute. And he got it, right? That, to me, was the magic that transpired. And I'll tell you this, it was the coolest job I ever had.

Jill James:

It sounds like it.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Loved it.

Jill James:

And it sounds like you had really willing participants.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Yes.

Jill James:

I mean, maybe that wasn't always the case, but it sounds like these managers you were working with were willing to ask you those probing questions.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Absolutely.

Jill James:

Where are my blind spots?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Where are my blind spots?

Jill James:

And to dig deeper, Carla. Yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

It made me realize ... So I had to apologize to my boss and the one that I fought because he was right. He saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. And part of it was I wanted what was popular because those jobs were really popular and seen as the ones that pushed your career, right? What I realized is you have to find what a job that aligns with your traits and your skills and your value systems. Because when you do, magic happens.

Jill James:

Yeah, Carla, talk a little bit more about that. So our listeners, they're thinking like, "Okay, she's talking about personality traits and values," and people listening may be wondering, "Wonder what mine are. I wonder what she's talking about." Do you want to talk about some of those personality traits and how it's informed your work and what your values are, and you've had a 38-year career, and how those traits and values become, I'm guessing, more and more crystal as you work?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

I mentor a lot of people over my career. And one of the things that I started with is we sit down and I said, "Let's take work out of the equation. Let's not talk about work, let's talk about you." I said, "You've just hit the lottery. So money's not an issue. What do you want to do? What makes you happy?"

Jill James:

Yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And when you sit back and you think about it, you have to think about, "That's it." Think about when you're being entertained, when you're talking to friends, what provides energy? Because at the end of the day, we all have a limited amount of energy. And if you put energy into what you don't enjoy, it takes away from the energy that you do enjoy because we only have so much. So I said, "What is it?" So I said, "Let's start with me." And that's when I said, "I have to reflect on it. What provides energy?" And that is when I'm going to the movies with my sister and my niece because we do things together. They love rom-coms. And it drives the energy out of me. I just don't enjoy it. But a murder mystery, I'm sitting on the edge of my seat. Why? Because I like to understand how things are mucked up and how things unravel. When you think about what I do for personal enjoyment, I love to work with puzzles. I have this adult coloring where I take this blank canvas and I stare at it and try to figure out how to turn it into something that creates beauty. So I've been studying how colors turn into shadows and how the leaves on the tree start with it being dark at the core and they end up light at the end because they're trying to get to the sunlight. That stimulates me. So you got to start thinking about what is it that gives you energy. But the other thing you also have to think about, that a lot of people don't, is what just takes away energy because there will always be people who try to put things on you and try to help you be something, right? And so you got to be able to know that that doesn't create energy for you so that you can say no.

Jill James:

Right, energy vampires.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Oh, I love that. Energy vampires. And so, for me, working on a spreadsheet or having seduced some daily structured monotonous task, it is energy draining. And I feel exhausted.

Jill James:

Same.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

But when I sit down and do my adult coloring ... This was my entertainment. I learned this through COVID. I got to find something to do besides binge-watch television because there was nothing else to do because you couldn't go anywhere.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

I would lose the day. I would look around and find out that night had fall because I was working on it and it consumed me because I love the end result. And so that's why you have to start really thinking about what creates energy and what is the energy vampire, I love that term. And then you can start talking about, "Okay, now what does that mean?" So one young lady said, "I love teaching, I love working with children. I would be a teacher with young people." And I said, "Well, why do you love that?" She said, "Well, I love to see people grow and I love to see the light in people's eyes." I said, "Okay, now let's bring it back to work. Can you do that at work? Can you help people grow? Can you help people see the light in their eyes?" And then you can start mapping out a profession. And a profession is not the same as a role, right? I had a boss who I had a lot of respect for, said, "Carla, you can make a job anything you wanted." So he said, "If you have a good boss and a good support system, you can morph that role and leverage your skillsets. So if you're in a job where, let's say, you have to work with people to develop a specific task, well, you can bring new ideas into that room and you can help people grow and understand those ideas and those people, you can see the light in their eyes", right? And that's the key.

Jill James:

Yeah, it's beautiful. That's beautiful. I think about those traits for me. I've taken the strengths finder assessment. I don't know if you've ever taken that, Carla. It's through Gallup.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

No, never.

Jill James:

And it's this assessment that tells you what your top five natural strengths are you were born with. So when you're talking about the energy, that's what I'm thinking about the things that energize me to do and to lean into those and away from the things like you're saying, take your energy away. So one of my top five strengths is something called individualization, meaning I like to learn unique things about individuals and remember them. And also communication is another one of my top five. And so what do I love? What gives me energy? Collecting people's stories? So what am I doing here? I've got a podcast.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

That's right.

Jill James:

Right?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Very cool.

Jill James:

Right. So, Carla, you also talked about values. How do you think about that in terms of your career and decisions that you make?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

So values, some people think that values is the difference between right and wrong. And it is. But there are levels of gray, right? So sometimes you're thinking, "Well, my values, they're ethical, I'm ethical. Therefore, our values are aligned." For that, yes. But there are other values. So let's say that you're ... So you have to think about the value of speed and taking action and driving things and not being a procrastinator or somebody who values the ideas of others or values helping to leverage all the talent in the room, right? You have to think about all those values and how it can help you along. So earlier in my career, my thinking was the big values, right, ethics, compliance with the law, all those things. That's table stakes. You also have to think about the value of your group, your organization. And I learned a lot of this in that audit role, and their ability to want to get to the end result. I've had some assurance jobs where I literally gave people the truth and they knew the truth, but they took it and used it in a different way. And so I think you have to think about that it's not just about good and bad, it's about how people leverage. And one of the things that I did is I said, "At this point, I have to recognize that my role is maybe not to be transformative, but my role is to communicate the truth."

Jill James:

Beautiful.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Because this person is not a transformer, right? And so that value system is not there. So I think it's really being aligned and understanding what you value versus the traditional value systems that people think about.

Jill James:

Yeah. And for you, it's exposing the truth. And maybe that means just letting it sit, right? You've shown a light on it. And then what's the next person's role after you've exposed that.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Exactly.

Jill James:

Right. Wonderful.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And my role, I value transformation. I value change. I value ... But some people don't, some people value steady as you go, keep the wheel cranking.

Jill James:

Yep.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Does that mean that my values are good and theirs are bad? No.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Carla, you were taking us on this journey of your careers and where you ended up and the people that you were working with and continuing on with your career if you'd like. What have you learned about environmental health and safety, the HSE role? Why HSE for you? And what do you believe it is? Yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

So I'm actually doing a presentation at a conference similar to the one at Verdantix. So I was preparing for it and it's been helpful for this. Back in 1970, the death rate was 18 per 100,000 employees. That was 1970. In 2007, it was 3.8 deaths for hundred thousand. In 2020, it was 3.4. So let's think about that. There's been a significant improvement since 1970 and 2007. And it's been fairly flat in the last 16 years. And so I've been on a diet journey. And on this diet journey, which has been very helpful in the last month, I have been doing the same thing over and over again because I'm trying to find this magical diet that will allow me to have Snickers and eat popcorn, and have a couple of glasses of wine here and there, and get on the scale and lose weight. And I get so frustrated when it doesn't happen. And at the end of the day, I realize, you know what, is it the diet or is it me, right? And I realized I had to change. Now, I read about it. I can quote every diet under the sun. It's not about knowledge, it's about action. And when I look at our stats, if industry wants to change and remember, let's talk about value systems, what do you want, right? It's all about what you want. If they really want to make the next-step change, the function has to change. It's not saying that the function is bad because the function, the work that has been done from 1970 to 2007, has been profound, significant improvement. All the management system work, all the policies, procedures, all of that has been very, very successful. But it's not going to get us to the next level. So then you have to ask yourself, what is?

Jill James:

That's right.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And that's what has been very intriguing for me, because when I started looking at summit, digging deeper in some of the work that's being done, and it talked about what was the biggest sources of injuries, it talked about things like biological gender and not saying women or men are stronger versus the other, is matching the job with the people's abilities, body composition, health, physical fitness, anatomy, skill levels, psychological factors. All of these have been the biggest risk factors that they have proven have caused the injuries. But guess what we're looking at? We're going back and we're looking at near misses, percent inspection, number of behavioral-based safety observations, training. So think about why people are getting injured and think about what we're doing and think about the stats.

Jill James:

Yeah. And Carla, are you suggesting looking more at fitting the person to the job?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Well, I think when I ... The company that I just left, I was doing one of my walks and it was the most interesting thing. The team had this application and the application, they ... Because we had a lot of problems with slip, trips, and falls. And the team started doing a study and found out that a lot of the issues, because many of the people working were moving into the 50-year range of age and a lot of their issues when they started studying their balance, they weren't balanced in how they walked because, for whatever reason, their muscles were atrophying because they weren't using them, right? And so they said, "You know what, people are slipping and falling because they're not balanced." So this app actually showed what was the areas that needed to focus on. And then they would give people various exercises to help balance them more so they could walk better and not fall. Matter of fact, I'm actually doing some of that right now three times a week for me because I was thinking, "Oh my gosh, you know what, I got to think about myself." But think about that and how powerful that is because the main causes of workplace injuries is overexertion and slip, trips, and falls, distractions, housekeeping, cutting corners. So picture now somebody saying, "You know what, this is not saying that people age is bad or good, this is saying we have to live with the fact that as we get older, we have to do different things to keep our muscles intact."

Jill James:

Yeah. When I think about that, Carla, when I see taking example of a roofer, and I just said that with my Minnesota accent, I know, everybody. And you think about a young fit person who's able to throw a bundle of shingles on their shoulder and climb up the ladder like a monkey and do that and do that and do that, and they do it because they're young, their body's not worn out yet, right? But how fast will that young agile body wear out doing that over and over and over again? And just because they can doesn't mean they should, right?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Absolutely.

Jill James:

And we should be doing that work smarter from the get-go.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

From the get-go.

Jill James:

Instead of wearing these beautiful bodies out and having people atrophy, as you said, later in life or too early for their young life. I think this is part of the job of ... This is part of our life's work, Carla.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

You're exact ... And the other part of it is when you find a task that is really putting a damper on a person's body, you have to ask yourself, should that task be done differently?

Jill James:

Right, right. And I think you have a story about the guy with the sander. Did you want to talk about ... Yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

So I was watching a gentleman who ... Because, one, a lot of the injuries in my former place of employment were ergonomic. And so one day, I went out, because I lived out in the field because I believe that's important, and at first, I was talking to a gentleman who was a sander and we were talking about his job. And so I said, "Let me ask you a question. When you're out there doing the sanding work, about how long does it take before you start to hurt?" And he laughed. He said, "It happens immediately." He said, "But let me explain to you." He said, "I'll start working and the pain starts immediately. I do it for eight hours. I go home and nurse myself. I come back and I do it again for eight more hours, and this could go on for three weeks." So that just resonated with me. I thought, "Goodness gracious." So then I was out and I was watching a person who was actually doing similar work and he had this device and he was using these repetitive hand motions. And I thought to myself, "If that person has to do that work consistently every day, he is going to have an ergonomic injury because that is what's causing it." So the answer should be, should I figure out how to help him or should I try to change the job? And these are the types of things that I think are the next wave that will get us from that 3.8 to that 3.4. And as I was going through it, the power of it is getting a far better understanding of the data, making sure that the data fits the job. I hear so much about leading indicators. And I was talking to a group of people and somebody went out and did this big huge study on all these leading indicators, and they came back with this huge list. And all the leaders were so excited because they said, "Oh, this is the big answer, right? We're going to do this leading indicators versus lagging." And I started looking at the leading indicators and compared it to individual places. And I thought, "Yes, that's true if that leading indicator is applicable to that job."

Jill James:

That's right.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

It's not the standard set. And let's go back to my diet. I was thinking about this yesterday. So, for me, a good leading indicator, the standard leading indicators for diet, is how much exercise you do if you log all your food, if you stay within a certain amount of calories, if you drink water. The logging indicator is getting on the scale. However, for me, a woman at my age, one of the leading indicators was to stay within 1,600 calories a day. So I did. But you know what I love, Snickers and popcorn. And I was able to keep my calories within 1,600 calories a day. And I did have my candy and I did eat my popcorn. And guess what happened? I exercised every day. I drank my water, I loved my food, and I gained weight. Why? Because those leading indicators were not applicable to my problem. And my problem is that sugar affects my hormonal system. And the hormonal system causes me to have a lot of insulin that kicks in, and the insulin stores fat and it makes me gain weight. So what I have to realize is my leading indicator may not be a 17-year-old kid's leading indicator. So you can't have all these standard ones and apply it to everybody. You got to find the leading indicator that works for me. It's the same thing now. We've got to start using and now we've got the ability with big data and using data scientists to get very, very surgical about what is the leading indicator that affects the risk of this particular job.

Jill James:

Yeah. So talk about that, Carla, in terms of, you're describing ... And I think you've said that you believe we're on the cusp of transformational change within our work and how we can leverage tech for this change. If someone is listening and thinking, "I wonder what she's talking about. How do I get this data or what tech?", what examples could you give from your experience, Carla?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

I think a lot of companies have the data. I think there's all sorts of systems that they have in place. They have maintenance systems, they have operational systems, they've got safety systems, they have a lot of it. It's how the data will be manipulated. To me, the next wave is to start looking at the correlations between the data. Going through and having someone start looking at the connections between the number of hours a person works versus the number of injuries that person has. Or looking at the productivity rates or looking at the resting patterns. It's not, to me, a situation where you have to create something new. Now, some smart person out there may create an algorithm that starts doing all this stuff automatically. And I applaud them. Although I know how to leverage technology, that is something I couldn't do. But you still can do it by having people dig through the data. And then this goes back to roles. How do we leverage the roles in our organization to start focusing on the right things? We are spending a lot of time using the roles to look at incidents that have happened. And we use that in our minds to think that that's going to help us to solve. We do investigations, we do incident. We should use some of those roles, not saying we shouldn't use all of them to start really thinking about cause and effect. And most safety incidents are not related to something in safety.

Jill James:

That's right.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Right? Most safety incidents are related to operations and maintenance. One of the things I did ... We kept having all these incidents and it was a weird phenomena because we would always have them in the first quarter of every year. So I asked the team, I said, "I want us to do an incident investigation of the incident investigations." And we took ... I got a team together and they took all the incidents and picked the top 16 and they said, "Let's look for some common threads." And they pulled through ... And you know what they found out, they found out that most of the incidents that happened, 60% happened during maintenance. So is that where you should be trying to fix safety or trying to improve the maintenance and reliability, right?

Jill James:

That's right.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And the other one was most of the incidents that happened happen within a split second where someone at the moment that they made the decision went and did not follow the rule. The rule was there. One person actually got injured bypassing the safety device because it fell in his hand and cracked his hand. They knew what they were doing it. And then you have to ask it, so why are they not doing it? And that's, to me, where roles that we should be focusing on, should be looking at data science, leveraging our data scientists, but also psychologists.

Jill James:

Talk more about that. And I so agree with you. You were talking about cause and effect and correlations with data, and everywhere you work, it's going to be different. When you're just giving the example about most things happening in the first quarter, in my last role, it was always before a big holiday push. So in that December timeframe is when we started seeing spikes. And why was that? People were getting ready to take time off. They were trying to get things done, they were moving faster. There was less time to accomplish things. And just the speed with which people were working was one of the reasons why people were getting hurt. And looking back in my job with OSHA, every accident, every fatality that I investigated, with the exception of one I can think of right now in over 30 that I investigated were people working alone. It was like, "Oh, here's another one." No witnesses. Person working alone. Can't even try to put the story, the puzzle, like you're talking about, together. So everywhere we work, you're right, we need to look at these cause and effects in these correlations, but please keep talking about the HSE, including psychology and sociology ...

Carla Davis-Madgett:

So I would say when you think about the biggest learning, because I'm an engineer, right, the biggest learning for me was, what can I do to transfer this uncomfortable feeling that I have when I'm looking at some of this stuff over to the person who is accountable for it. And I remember doing a field walk in one of the sites, and I didn't see any operators and I was like, "Where are the operators?" So I went in and I started talking to the leaders and I said, "Where are the operators?" They said, "Well, the leader doesn't believe in the operators being out in the field." They only want them to do it on a limited basis and they're trying to protect them. In their minds, they thought it was. I was like, "Yeah, but the operators are the ones that are protecting the asset and themselves." So I was talking to the business leader and they told me, they said ... I said, "You got to have operators out in the field." And she said, "Oh, you know what, that's one of the reasons why they don't like working with people like yourself," the company that I worked with, "because you're always trying to force your thinking on them. And I reflected on it. I said, "Let me explain to you." I said, "I'm in Houston and you're 5,000 miles away. Right now", I said, "I am really feeling uncomfortable about what you're doing because I know the risk that it creates." I said, "And I'm in Houston. You're there. So what I need to do is help you to understand that you're putting yourself at risk, right? And I want you to help me help you to understand that that is a risky proposition." Well, think about what a psychologist and a sociologist can do because sometimes it's not about just handing people the algebraic equation. It's getting to the hearts and mind of those people. And the psychologists and, I think, sociologists can help in that space. And people who think of world using empirical data and how, if I just show them that it's right, that it's going to convince them. But that doesn't work all the time. And so I think ... Though, leveraging data scientists, psychologists, sociologists, does it mean that you don't have industrial hygienist, ergonomist? No, that's table stakes. You have to have those things. You have to have safety specialists. But right now, we've got to realize you want to get beyond that 3.4, which we've been hovering at for the last 16 years. We got to do things differently and we can't continue to just keep ... I got so tired of the routine of an incident and do an investigation and then preparing a report. And most of the recommendations either do better training or do a checklist. And I was like, "How many checklists are they doing right now?" Because if I go back and look at all those reports, they should be doing at least 50, right? And the focus should be on, how do we institutionalize practices? How do we change the work? How do we transform and leverage technology to eliminate the risk?

Jill James:

That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's right. I mean, prevention is something that ... I mean, Carla, you've worked globally in your job forever. And so I don't know the answer to this, but what I do know about the United States is we're not good at prevention. We are fantastic at running to the fire, at doing a quick fix of responding to the emergency, but we are not great at prevention, which includes our profession. And what did you see when you've worked around the globe? Are there different cultures that are better at prevention or value it in a different way?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

I think there are, and I don't know if they actually know that they're doing it in prevention. There are some cultures that are very much better at discipline and predictability. A lot of the Asian cultures, very structured, very big on predictability and routine. And because of that, they have better data and they can do more in prevention, but I don't know if they're doing it for that reason. And I think that this whole issue of prevention is a moving target, right? I wish it was, but it's not a straight line because you can do a lot of things to prevent. Let's say you're working and you put in a lot of practices in place to prevent, and you're putting in methodical processes. What you have to realize, anything made by humans, the natural order is for it to break down over time, right? Anything ... And our bodies are breaking down over time. Equipment is breaking down over time and the weather patterns are changing, all these dynamics are changing. So when people put these things in and they build it under the guise that they want it to be a straight line, it's not. And then take the variations of that and add them and multiply them into different things. And it creates all different scenarios. And that is, to me, why your system has to build in adaptability and be able to evolve and learn as these things are changing. So it can change. And that's, to me, where the digitalization comes in. And using technology and being able to sense when the body is changing and the equipment changing are creating this perfect storm for something to happen so that you can intervene versus being able to allow it to just align itself and never touch it again, right? That's why I think you see safety performance go in peaks and valleys because people ... I had a boss tell me, "Every time we'd fix something, something breaks." I said, "That's called life. It is what it is." He said, "And I'm just so frustrated." I said, "Yeah, but that's called life. There's never going to be a situation where something's not going to break." I said, "But what you need to realize is that look at it differently. The things that you're witnessing now, compare them to what you were witnessing before." So I said, "When we first started, we had about 15 process safety incidents where I was working." We were down to about two. Well, when we first started having conversations, I was telling him about a couple of gas explosions, burns, significant burns. Towards the end, we were talking about people slipping, and tripping, and falling. I said, "It has improved, but you want to never have the conversation." The conversation's going to continue to happen. So that's the key.

Jill James:

Carla, you've been talking a lot about, essentially, the future of EHS, HSE, and where you feel like it needs to go to make that change. You're talking about so that we can lower and stop hovering around that. What did you say, 3.4, 3.8?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

3.4 is 2020 fatality rate ...

Jill James:

Yeah. What other things do you think need to be in place? Do you have more to say about that before we move on to something else?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

I would just say foundational for all of this is leadership, buy-in, and engagement. And that is, to me, where I think there needs to be a dialogue to help leaders understand. And I've learned that sometimes you can't sell it as a moral imperative because most people believe in it and most people know it's the right thing to do. It was like my diet. I knew it was the right thing to do. I know eating chocolate all day is not normal. It doesn't matter, right? So you got to figure out, how do you capture those hearts and minds? And there's nothing wrong with linking it to productivity, reliability, and competitive advantage because it is. I went through in preparation for this slide presentation and I pulled up on, because all this is public, right, on Google. And I said, "Can you give me some charts?" Because I want this presentation to be very interactive. Some present charts on the connection between productivity, competitive edge, and safety. Fifty of them popped up in all parts of the business. The data's all there. It shows the connection. And we've got to start leveraging it, not feeling ashamed to do it, and start showing people, HSE is morally right, but it's good business. Companies that have lower injury rates do better. Why? Because the people who are building the products are healthy.

Jill James:

And they can keep their mind on their job when they're healthy.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And they can keep their mind on their job. So it's good business and we need to not feel ashamed of it and recognize that we have to sell it. One of my leaders was a commercial manager. He forced me to speak about EHS in commercial terms because that's how his brain was wired. And so I did. And because of that, he became a zealot. And I didn't have to push him, he pushed me.

Jill James:

Yeah. Because he saw the advantage through his lens.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

He saw the advantage.

Jill James:

Yeah. I mean, our default lens as HSE professionals is what you're talking about, the moral imperative, right? That's our default. We think everybody should be like that, but that's not where we can stay. We have to meet people where they are. And I think this is beautiful, what you're saying about being able to show the, what did you say, reliability, productivity, a competitive advantage of safety. Yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

That's exactly right.

Jill James:

Wonderful, wonderful. Carla, what a great reflection and planting of seeds for the next generation, and particularly the people that listen to this podcast. And I know that you've been reflecting a lot because you're also considering your next career move. And so what does that look like for you? And I'm curious what people might be able to take away from the thought process that you're going through right now if someone else is in the same position.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Well, it goes back to what you value and what interests you, right? And so I left the role, I was a vice president of a HSE function, and I left it because the role was changing and it was becoming a role that was more junior in nature. And as you get older, time becomes a valuable resource, right? And so I started reflecting on me as an individual and I said, "There's nothing wrong with what they're trying to accomplish, but that's not what I want to do in the later stages of my career." So I've been reflective, I've done some travels. I'm getting ready to go on a cruise to South America in February, so, I'm enjoying myself, but I've used this time to be reflective. And I've spoken to a number of companies. As I'm going through these conversations ... Remember we talked about, it's not about good value versus bad, it's about your value system versus others.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

I believe we have the ability to do something transformational in this space, I think. And that is where my focus is going to be. And so I've been talking to a number of companies. I've been very, very open with them about what I believe in. I told them, "I'm not a traditionalist. I believe in transformation and I'm very comfortable. If that's not what you want, I'm okay with that because this stage of my life, this is about me fulfilling a purpose and I want it to be a good marriage,", right? So my sister's been talking to me and I thought about some of the things you mentioned. And she said, "Carla, why don't you do something on your own? Why don't you think about this and build this into something so that instead of just helping one company, you can help multiple companies?" And I pushed her off, right? And then another person said it. She said, "Carla, why are you trying to limit this to one place? Why aren't you trying to build this ... And you keep getting these sound bites," right? And then you said something when we were preparing for this, you said, "Carla, if you mapped out where you want this to go," and I hadn't. And so now, I'm thinking about that. So my sister was a VP of marketing for Coca-Cola, and she said, "Carla, I'll help you." And so I'm going to ... I've worked for 38 years. If I can't do it now, when can you do it? I don't have any kids to put in college. And I thought ... She said, "You talked about this, you want to leave a legacy. What better legacy than to put a framework in place that others can use?" So I thought, "What a cool thing." So that's what I'm going to think about doing. Now, I'm still open if there's something that materializes, but it is almost like the situation with my diet. I kept having these conversations with people and trying to explain what this is and everybody's trying to pull me back to be the traditionalist. And I thought, "I just don't want that." That's not what ... First of all, I don't think it works, but I don't want to do that. And it's not fair to a group of people who do want to do it, to take on that role. If that's what you want, that's fine, but that's not me. And so I've really been reflective and it's been very, very energizing going full circle with our conversation about it, and it's creating energy. I woke up this morning thinking, "Gosh, what the" ... And I started jotting notes and I thought, "There's something to this. And should I allow myself to just force myself to fit into a groove that other people think is the right thing or should I do what's the right thing for me?" And it also goes back to that conversation where you should ... I was thinking this morning, you really should allow yourself to listen to others. And I'm saying this to Carla right now, right, because a lot of times we think we know ourselves. And a lot of people know you better than you. And so here's another situation where I had this image in my head of what I thought was best. And everybody keeps ... I'm getting all this popcorn information from people. "Carla, think about what you're doing and how you can be a game changer." And I'm just, "Oh, no, no, no." And I'm steadily working with people and talking to people, and all these sound bites are coming around me and I just won't listen to it, right? And at the end of the day, I reflected on it. I was like, "Oh my goodness, they were right."

Jill James:

Yeah. I mean, you're noticing, Carla, the universe that keeps tapping you on the shoulder, right, and giving you these nudges and exposing what it sounds like the path you may get on next. And we don't do that unless we have time to reflect, right?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Yes.

Jill James:

And so you have this wonderful opportunity to be reflective and you know what, for all of us, if you're listening and you're mired down into the speed with which your career is moving right now, and, gosh, we know so many of us, right, so many of us in our careers are reacting, reacting, reacting, reacting. And if we can at least schedule little tiny bits of our days and weeks for nothing but reflection, that's where the clarity comes. That's where your next big idea comes. That's where your next direction for your career or clarity on something, a specific task, a problem you're trying to solve. That's where the clarity comes.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Absolutely. So I thank you. You've been helpful for me in preparation for this. I'll have to tell you this one story, and I've told people this story before.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And there's a book and it's called Write It Down, Make It Happen. So I used to mentor these young ladies.

Jill James:

Okay.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

And it was about five or six of them, all young ladies early in their careers. And every month, we would meet at my house for dinner. So we would sit ... And I was in the kitchen and they were talking and they were having all these conversations and everything was about dating and guys. So I said, "Okay." I said, "Now, I know we're supposed to be in a mentoring relationship. Do you want to do anything about work? It's up to you." And they said, "Okay." I said, "Well, let's do this. Let's do a book club and I'll find a book." And so they said, "Okay." So I went and got this book, Write It Down, Make It Happen. And you found it in the bookstore, just scanning through things. And I read probably the first maybe a hundred pages. And what it talked about is that when you write things down, it actually helps to bring things from the back of the brain to the front of the brain. And because of that, it helps you to pick up the signals that you're getting every day. And because of that, if you respond to those signals, things will happen. So I told them about it. They was like, "Oh, this is a bunch of crap. We don't want to do it." I said, "Okay, look." I said, "I'll do it, I'll start." I said, "I'm going to sing in an opera." And they said, "Have you ever been trained? Nope." They said, "How are you going to do it? Don't have a clue." I said ... And it talked about when you write it down, you have to be very prescriptive about what you want so that you can see it because one example is like when you go out and buy a car, a red car, and then you notice everybody has red cars. The red cars were there all along. It's just that because you bought that car, it brought it from the back of the brain to the front of the brain, and now you're starting to see it. Same thing. So I said, "I'm going to sing in an opera. I'm going to have on a red dress." And I said, "I'm going to sing before a large audience." And so the other young lady said, "Okay, well, I want to do mission work in a third-world country." Another young lady said, "I want to be in a job that travels the world," right? Okay. So I was living in Louisiana, moved to Houston. I had a coach. Coach said, "Carla," he said, "You need to spend more time in your personal life. What would you like to do after work?" I said, "Well, I want to sing in an opera." He said, "Really?" He said, "I have a friend who works with the Houston Opera. Would you like to meet him?" I was like, "Sure." So he said, "I'll have him call you." I said, "Okay." So the guy calls me. So then he said, "Carla, I heard you want to sing in an opera." I said, "Yes." He said, "What type of training have you had?" I said, "I've had none." He said, "Would you like to take some training?" I said, "Sure." He said, "Do you like experiential, something else?" I said, "I didn't know what it was." I was like, "Okay, experiential." So he said, "Okay, here's a number of people that you can talk to." He said, "There's a woman who" ... He gave me the name of this woman. I won't call out her name because she may not want it. And he said she works with the University of Houston. I said, "Okay." Called her up. She said, "You want to sing in an opera?" I said, "Yes." She said, "I have some classes and an opening on Saturdays. Do you want to take it?" I said, "Sure." I took the classes. She said, "Well, Carla, you're not ready to sing in an opera." She said, "Well, you know that there's a opera company in Houston, a volunteer opera company, and they even have one that's African American." I was like, "Oh." So I started training. So we did a couple recitals. Now, I did a recital, I had on a red dress. And then I was talking to one of the young ladies who ... We were in Australia at a coffee shop, and she said, "Carla, do you remember when we had that conversation about our Write It Down, Make It Happen?" I said, "Yeah." She said, "Do you remember the goal?" I said, "No." She said, "I told you I wanted to travel the world into my job," and we're sitting in a coffee shop in Australia. And then the other young lady who got laid off from her job, during the time she didn't have a job, found through her church that they had a mission in Guatemala and she signed up for it. It's power.

Jill James:

It is power. It is power. You transformed yourself into a red dress wearing opera singer.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

I never sang in the opera, though.

Jill James:

That was fantastic.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Because my job stopped it, but I was extremely close.

Jill James:

You were extremely close. You got on the stage in practice at least, right?

Carla Davis-Madgett:

That's right.

Jill James:

Oh, that's fantastic. Carla, oh, this has been an absolute delight and I look forward to seeing the process that you create for others to use and reuse to spread the change.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

Okay. Well, I'm looking forward to it.

Jill James:

That you know is possible. Yeah, this is great. This is great. I really, really appreciate the conversation today and all that you've shared with our audience. Thank you so much.

Carla Davis-Madgett:

You have a great day.

Jill James:

Thank you. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good, making sure your workers, including your temporary workers, make it home safe every day. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like Carla and I. Special thanks to Amy Norton and Emily Gould, our podcast producers. And until next time. Thanks for listening.