Jill James:

This is The Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded October 19th, 2023. My name is Jill James, HSI's chief safety officer. And joining us today is Guillermo Sabatier. Guillermo is an electrical engineer and has worked in support of the utility industry for 30 years. Guillermo is a NERC system operator. NERC stands for North American Electric Reliability Corporation and is a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt. Guillermo is also FEMA certified on their incident command system. And today, Guillermo is director of International Services at HSI. He's joining us from his home in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Welcome to the show, Guillermo.

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, thank you, Jill. That's a great introduction and I really appreciate it and thank you for having me. I've been an avid listener to your podcast for quite a while now, so it's great to be here finally.

Jill James:

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that so much. Well, so 30 years in support of the utility industry, that's a long time. How did that start for you? And did you go about and earn your electrical engineering degree and just jump right in and then safety and health presented itself or what did that look like?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, that is an interesting ride that they described there, but the funny part was that it started as I was looking for a job when I was starting college and then I applied to the local utility in Florida, a very large vertically integrated utility. And I ended up getting a job and something related to the field of electrical engineering, even if it was several steps removed and I got a job as a meter reader.

Jill James:

Oh, wow. So you were in college and you got a meter reading job?

Guillermo Sabatier

Yeah.

Jill James:

I want to believe, most people know what meter reading is, but in case somebody doesn't, do you want to describe what that job is?

Guillermo Sabatier

Absolutely. And right now, mind you, the technology has changed to the point where most of these meters are remotely read, right? It's an AMI system, which is really ... Technology has improved, but back then, there were electromechanical devices and there was one in every home. And you just had to walk to every single house and read that meter, enter it on a handheld computer that you carried with you and that was, it's 200, 300, 400, 500 accounts every day. And you could be walking for four or five hours to sometimes up to eight hours [inaudible 00:02:54].

Jill James:

Oh, wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

So that was quite the calorie burn.

Jill James:

Holy cow. So meter reading and letter carriers are the people that were at that time showing up at your house essentially of ... Well, meter reading happened, what, once a month to each address?

Guillermo Sabatier

Yes, yes. That took place once a month and it was a certain time of the month. They called it a cycle day where it's usually 21 days, right? But the rough part about meter reading is a lot of times these meters are in the rear of the houses. So then you have to brave all kinds of things to get back there, sometimes dogs, sometimes other strange wildlife.

Jill James:

Yeah. So tell us about ... I mean, yeah, I can't imagine. Just when I see letter carriers and when I saw meter readers out and about, I thought, "Gosh, this is a rough job, health and safety-wise." What sort of hazards did you encounter?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, there was usual a step hazard, where you would imagine Florida being Florida, every once in a while you'd have a storm and they're redoing all the roof material of the houses. And then usually, some of the things that fall off the roof onto the grass is usually those tacks, all those nails, roofing nails. So one thing you always worry about is a step hazard. So you're wearing shoes to prevent that. The other thing, of course, is the obvious dog attack, that sort of thing. So there was a pretty good amount of that. At least once a week, you'd have a good scare.

Jill James:

My gosh.

Guillermo Sabatier

But again, there was a lot of training and they give you a lot of personal protective equipment to prevent that. And you always learn not to take chances, right? So that's one of the things you learn. If you can't get in because of the dog, you would always let go. You'd let the computer do the estimation and then you move on to the next account.

Jill James:

Wow. So what sort of training did you get regarding dogs or how did you know like, "Oh crap, I need to about face here and turn around"?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, that was a very interesting transition, because when you first start, usually, it's you got a week and a half of structured training, and then eventually, they send you out with someone who's a more experienced, I guess, meter reader/trainer. And really what it is at that point is that they're applying everything you learned in class, but in reality, there was a lot of veterinary-produced videos and materials to get you to understand what dog behavior is like. And in a lot of cases, you learned that a lot of that was fear and territorial behavior on some of these animals. So once you learn that, you pretty much pretty good at avoiding dog bites. And I did that job for five years and I was able to avoid dog bites while on the job. I got bitten once I left the job on my own at a party, but it's a different story.

Jill James:

What? Oh my gosh. Okay. So did you ever run into other things on your way to the meter besides ... Yeah, what else?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, there was a couple of examples that come to mind. Down in the Florida, there's an area called the Redlands, which is more rural. And down there, of course, you've got your livestock where it's cattle and horses and that sort of thing. And so I remember going into a large property that had that white wooden fencing and I walk in there and about 40 steps in, then there's a cow just gunning for me. So I turned around and ran back and I left and the cow just didn't want me in that property. So like, "All right, it's your property," and went on to the next one. Another example, of course, this is totally unexpected, was somebody had an emu in a suburban property.

Jill James:

Oh my gosh.

Guillermo Sabatier

So the emu decided to just peck at my handheld computer for some reason and it wasn't really interested in me, but it's still a surprise.

Jill James:

Oh my gosh. Emu comes walking up to you. So you've been charged by a bovine and pecked by an emu. Oh my gosh. Wow. Okay, that sounds like an interesting job. So you did that throughout college. What were you thinking about your career path at that point?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, at that point, I really began to appreciate what the industry. So there, I began to understand the utility industry and I saw it from a distribution side, which means distribution is, I guess, call it the last few miles to serve the customer, right?

Jill James:

Yeah.

Guillermo Sabatier

And I got a really good taste of everything when I worked my very first hurricane restoration. I was there ... I started in October of 91 in that company and I think it was August of '92 was when we had that huge Category 5 storm Andrew that destroyed a lot of South Florida. And that was already catastrophic, but as far as a learning experience for me, it was remarkable.

Jill James:

Were you done with college by then or ...

Guillermo Sabatier

No, no.

Jill James:

... or were you still-

Guillermo Sabatier

Oh, goodness. No.

Jill James:

Okay, okay. You're still in the meter reading-

Guillermo Sabatier

Yeah. Yes.

Jill James:

Okay. Okay. Yeah, tell us about that. What did you learn?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, there, they give you the most simple jobs. As a meter reader, you ended up being a runner, but you also understood what all this hardware was for because you're learning it in school, right? So you're adding value to the whole process and you're seeing line crews, whether they're native from the company you work for or they're coming in from other areas to help. You got to learn a whole lot more while you're doing the restoration process. So for me, those three or four weeks, which is ... My first restoration was the longest ever that most people had ever experienced, which I thought was interesting. But a lot of things, especially on safety, I got to tell you, it was really interesting and illuminating. That was my baseline. And then every storm after that, and Florida's known for storms, I saw the changes on how they got better every year, every year with the safety practices.

Jill James:

And so when you're doing recovery work like that, what sort of ... I mean, I think in my mind, I'm just picturing the obvious hazards of lines down that are live and charged. What other sort of hazards are there or is that the primary one?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, that is the primary one. Usually, it's having a line that's fallen on the ground and it's still energized, that's a very dangerous situation. And especially when you're walking towards it, there's a thing they call step voltage where for every step you take, the difference of potential between one step and one foot and the other becomes stronger and stronger as you would get closer to that line. So that's one of the things that really we made sure we understood that and which is definitely a hazard. And the other thing, of course, at that point is just all the debris, right? Just stepping on nails. Traffic is another big, big problem because all the signs and traffic control systems are gone.

Jill James:

Oh, wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

So that's a huge problem as well. A lot of accidents take place in that, but definitely a lot of step hazards.

Jill James:

Yeah, and so ... Well, I mean, I guess I want to hear what you noticed that's different over the years, but maybe you want to continue your story of where you went next or what makes sense?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, for me, let's touch on the whole hurricane restoration and hurricane preparations part of the story. And because for me, there's a very significant change in safety, right? So one of the things that to me changed quite a bit was the way they would prepare for storms and they will call it a dry run format, which means that every year, a month or so before the season started, they began to run storm dry runs. And it sounds redundant, but what it is they'll basically prepare and they'll create a scenario and they will test out every system they had on a tabletop exercise, but with all the software that came along with it.

Guillermo Sabatier

And right now, they've gotten to the point that it's highly evolved where they are able to even simulate what it's like to have a staging site or what it's like to have crews and logistics behind it, even the tools and materials to get them properly staged ...

Jill James:

Wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

... to not just react rapidly but also do it all safely. One of the first changes I noticed was the personal protective equipment that everybody got assigned and everybody had training long before the storm season came. Assigned your equipment, taught how to use your equipment and then making sure that that equipment was up-to-date because some of those things expire. So that was the first thing I noticed. And then after that was a lot more training and a lot more training every year, which I'm glad I got.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. When you were going through and earning your degree, were your fellow students having this field experience like you had? Was that common or was it unusual?

Guillermo Sabatier

I think it was unusual. The ones that were in school with me that also worked for the same utility, they have very similar experiences, but they just so happened, I guess luck. I guess it just so happened that they were in different business units. So I was working with either meter reading or distribution and then they were working for power generation, which is they were working at the plants. Someone else was working customer service, so they will have a completely different experience because they were getting creating that was appropriate to their roles. But I guess mine had the funniest stories. I imagine when we sat down together to talk.

Jill James:

From the dogs and the emu and the bovine and storm. Yeah, was there more?

Guillermo Sabatier

Yeah, just being out in the field, restoring power in August, Florida, August, weather is awfully hot, so you can imagine trying to soothe customers saying, "Yes, we're working really hard to get your power back. I understand." And that was another thing that changed dramatically, was they said ... I remember, at one point, they said, "Don't talk to any news crews or news media. Direct them out of corporate communications." That was in the last few years of me being there that they've really made that message very clear to all the employees and for good reason, of course, also.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. Guillermo, what drew you to wanting to get an electrical engineering degree to start with?

Guillermo Sabatier

So you're going to laugh ...

Jill James:

All right.

Guillermo Sabatier

... but I started learning about electronics in high school and it just so happened the high school I was in had a really good vocational program, which you don't see a lot of anymore in a lot of high schools. So this vocational program had a whole lot of things. I mean, they have very strong academics, right? And I did all the required academics to be college-bound, but there was a blue collar aspect to it, I think you can call it, or actually it's the crafts aspect or applied learning. And I went through learning basic auto mechanics. I took some, of course, a woodshop, and then of course, I took electronics, and at that point, I really enjoyed that course and I decided to take two other courses. So I guess it was like 10th grade, 11th and 12th, and then learning a lot about electronics, I really developed an interest for that.

Guillermo Sabatier

So I decided, at that point, "I want to learn something in engineering." And with a good level of guidance that was available at the time, I figured out, "All right, so I guess I can just jump into the university system and take advantage of that," and that's what I did.

Jill James:

Yeah. Wow. Interesting. All right. So you graduate, then what happens with your career?

Guillermo Sabatier

Right before graduating with my undergrad in engineering, I was working in distribution as a designer or service planner, which is starting to understand more about engineering, but not really where I wanted to end up at the time. And then somebody catches wind of the fact that, "Hey, you're a EE and we need people in the field to build substations." So then somebody really went out of their way and he was a great mentor and he made it a point to make sure no one else hired me but him and I end up in the field as a protection and control engineer. And from that point on, that career just took off in that direction. And so he had me working right a week and a half after graduation. [inaudible 00:15:59].

Jill James:

Wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

Right there and then, it was immediate, right? In fact, I don't think I had a break now that I think about it. I graduated, I wrapped up work and distribution and I started the following week in field engineering, as a field engineer, so there was no break involved.

Jill James:

Oh my gosh. Well, okay, so you had a consistent paycheck, so that's cool, but were you a little bit freaked out, "I just graduated and now I'm in charge of some really important stuff"?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, that's interesting, because at that point, now you have quite the steep learning curve in that field, right? Specifically, the relay engineering or they call it protection and control engineering, or some places, they call them a system protection, but now you're working in a substation. So that in itself has a unique set of hazards, right?

Jill James:

And maybe, Guillermo, describe, in case our listeners don't know, what happens at a substation.

Guillermo Sabatier

Okay. Substation usually is a fence property, right?

Jill James:

Okay.

Guillermo Sabatier

And in there, you're taking transmission lines that are usually in very high voltage. You have 138,000 volts, 230,000 volts that's coming in from a transmission system and there's a transformer there that steps that voltage down. And then from there, that's what feeds all your neighborhoods. So these substations typically are ... That's called a distribution substation. They also have transmission substations and that's more larger, more involved and those are more on in the transmission site, but the ones that I learned or worked with originally were the distribution stations. So in there, you're just a few feet away from 138,000 volts, right? I mean, I'm sorry, 13,000 volts.

Jill James:

Geez.

Guillermo Sabatier

So you learned to be aware and be mindful of energized equipment, not very far away from you. And of course, like anything else, there's trip hazards there too.

Jill James:

Wow. Oh, man.

Guillermo Sabatier

Always wearing a hard hat. Always wear a hard hat, always wear flame-retardant shirt, always wear steel toe boots, that sort of thing.

Jill James:

Yeah, and as you were getting that job and doing that work, what did safety look like at the utility at the time? Did they have someone dedicated to that job and did you have training with everyone else or did they assume maybe you knew more because you're an electrical engineer? How does that work?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, that was interesting, because there, they had a bargaining unit side, which were the electrician and they had the, I guess it's the engineers, but everybody got the same training, which I thought was great because then you're speaking the same language. And I did see several evolutions of that in the years I was there, right? And then in the campaigns would change names. But one thing that I noticed that was dramatically different was it went from accepting one or two injuries a year to at some point saying, "We're going to work and strive towards zero injuries. No one's going to get injured and that's our goal, zero injuries." And to me, that was a huge paradigm shift in the entire philosophy of safety, right? Because think about it, nobody should be getting hurt, especially in that industry. An injury there is often fatal or catastrophic.

Jill James:

Yeah. There's not a lot of room for any oops. Yeah. Guillermo, I said, at the beginning, you've been working in the utility industry for 30 years and you mentioned personal protective equipment. When did arc-rated clothing come into play?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, when I went to work at the substations, they already had the flame-retardant clothing for my level of work. So whenever you did something that involved switching equipment in or out of service, there, you're putting on gloves, you're putting on a shirt, a flame-retardant shirt. You're always making sure the clothing you wear is flame-retardant or at least not synthetic, right? You're wearing, of course, a hard hat. You're wearing some sleeves. You're wearing something that goes on your hard hat, which is just to prevent burning the back of your neck, and of course, eye protection. And that was something that you did while you're using these sticks to switch out equipment at the station.

Guillermo Sabatier

Now, the substation electricians had additional layers of protection and protocols because they actually would lay hands on some of the equipment. And when I say lay hands, meaning they're using rubber gloves and sleeves and that sort of thing because they're isolated or in a bucket truck. So that's stuff that we wouldn't do, right? That's something that the electricians would do or the line workers would do. And they had a whole different level of training and equipment and education regarding that.

Jill James:

Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Guillermo Sabatier

Very different.

Jill James:

Yeah. So what happened in your career next? And I'm interested as you continue to talk about how the safety culture changed and what you've observed overall this time, but what was your next stopping point?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, from there, I went over to the power plants, usually the nuclear plants for those refueling outages. And there, they have a very different [inaudible 00:21:37] controlled, documented protocols for everything you do. So that one itself, now you have another element of a hazard there, which is radiological, right? So there's those of us that will never set foot inside anywhere that scene or that has anything to do with radioactivity, but you're still trained and made aware of that. So for me, seeing that is a whole different level of awareness in that regard, right? And then there are certain places that you can walk. You have to follow certain lines as you're walking, moving around the plant, right? There's certain yellow lines and purple lines and blue lines. And these are there to make sure you don't get hit by, say, a forklift.

Guillermo Sabatier

So that's one tool that you use to make sure that ... The forklift operator knows that they can't cross these lines because there could be a foot traffic on there and then the foot traffic knows to stay on this path and don't wander off because you might get hit by a vehicle. That was one example, right, in that regard. And then of course, there were our own dangers dealing with, I guess, switching in a confined space, right? In that regard, now you're wearing ... We didn't do any switching, but we got trained on some of that and that level of PPE was different. Now they're wearing an entire suit that's flame-retardant and it covers our whole body and then they wear something over their head because now you're in a closed room doing the switching, whereas my experience, you're outside, so open air. So a lot different, but that's looking at the change from a perspective of a slightly different business unit.

Guillermo Sabatier

For the philosophy, for me, I went from there to operations in the control center and there the safety culture was now you're really working from an office, but even there, there's hazards that can happen in an office and then the actions you take in there can affect people in the field. So now-

Jill James:

Yeah. So talk about what a control center. What are the responsibilities in a control center?

Guillermo Sabatier

Okay. Well, a control center, when it comes to transmission, you're operating your portion of the bulk electric system, where you're looking at all the power plants operating together. You're looking at all the high voltage transmission lines all tied together and how that operates and that is run and maintained. And one of the important things on there is understanding that you can operate a lot of these devices remotely. So with that one, there's no visibility physically of what's happening there, so you're relying a lot on alarming and communications with people in the field. So it's very interesting work.

Jill James:

And you're describing this and this is probably not a very complimentary thing to say, but the first image that came to mind is Homer Simpson.

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, Homer Simpson is more ... The best description would be him at the nuclear plant. Even though I would never categorize him that way, but they're definitely strict. I had been working inside a control center in the nuclear plant, doing some maintenance on some relaying equipment, but I think it is very controlled how you go in and go out of there, but the level of training, certification, interviewing and the steps you got to go through to be qualified to even be allowed to set foot in there is rather significant. But in a control center, for the grid, you have a nice big comfortable room with a map board and you have ... Usually, the lights are dim because you're focusing on your screens to the map board, but it's many hours of sitting around and making decisions, interrupted by a few minutes of stress a few times.

Jill James:

You had mentioned, when we spoke briefly about this piece of it that people who work in the control centers, you pay attention to their circadian rhythms. Is that what I'm remembering correctly?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, yeah. There was a study a while back. It had to do with the fact on ... It was really human performance and part of that was error prevention. And one of the things that they had picked up from both the nuclear side and also the allied health or healthcare industry was that the majority of errors, I think back then, they were noticing a trend that tend to be more commonly occurring between the hours of 3:00 and 5:00 PM and 3:00 and 5:00 AM for some reason. So they were taking steps to mitigate that particular risk, but that's usually a time when those mistakes would happen the most often, especially on a 12-hour shift somehow.

Guillermo Sabatier

One of the things that we did was we stuck to an eight-hour shift most of the time. I mean, there were three shifts, but then when they tried the 12-hour shift, we noticed some problems like that beginning to occur, so they went back to that eventually. Yeah, and then in Florida, of course being Florida, if you do a 12-hour shift now, you're going to have an hour drive each way, an hour drive coming in the morning and an hour drive going home. So now you're only getting maybe nine, 10 hours of rest. So that's another factor, right?

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. Wow. And so were those limiting the hours to an eight-hour shift where you were, was that driven by the unions, by the company, by both?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, that was interesting. That was really just in the particular control center. That decision was made there and I was always a supporter of eight-hour shifts. I never really liked the 12-hour shift practice because of the fact that the way they were scheduled, they were too close together. But in the power plants, in other control centers and other areas, they would run 12-hour shifts. And if they're scheduled okay and you're properly conditioned to endure them, then you do fine, but it didn't work well for us. And for the most part, it was because you had a strong culture of eight-hour shifts and that eight hour shift gives you more time every day, I guess, with your family, whereas a 12-hour shift, you're pretty much committed to just working and sleeping for a one or two week stretch. So that's where that changed, I guess, were.

Jill James:

So what happened with your career next? I know that eventually you earned some FEMA certifications and some NERC certification. Yeah, what's going on? Yeah.

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, let's start with a NERC certification there.

Jill James:

Sure.

Guillermo Sabatier

To work in a control center as an operator, you have to have a NERC certification. And we, at HSI, do quite a bit of NERC test prep training for the industry in that regard. So that's definitely ... So in order to operate in a control center for the bulk electric system, you have to have a NERC certification. So that's required. So that was one of my first steps into this part of the industry already. And it was interesting, because at that time, for most people, it was a very scary, intimidating exam, right? But-

Jill James:

Like similar to someone, well, in the safety world, maybe taking their CSP, their Certified Safety Professionals exam or a CPA or ...

Guillermo Sabatier

Right.

Jill James:

... RN taking a board.

Guillermo Sabatier

Right. Right. And the interesting thing here too is that, once you get your initial certification, they want you getting continued education hours. You have to get 200 hours every three years. So it's quite a bit of training to followup with that. And they don't want you just retaking the exam. They want you to do your hours, so you're continually learning. So that was my first introduction into that. Now of course, Florida being Florida, you have hurricanes every year. So in order to fine tune the process of how we did the storm restoration and the associated training, they began to apply a more structured approach on emergency preparedness, crisis management and that sort of thing.

Guillermo Sabatier

So along with that way, with FEMA, we all got our training and mine were very basic, but I can certainly tell you how and who an incident commander is and I can tell you how an incident command system works. So I definitely know who can tell you what to do in a command center. That was a really important thing to understand because then that format is applied over and over again and pretty much any incident or any disaster, right? So it was very helpful certification actually to get and that, of course, was applied every year. And every time we had a hurricane or even a dry run, it always followed a structure.

Jill James:

Yeah, was that intriguing to you?

Guillermo Sabatier

It really was because I saw that, one example, the incident commander role, for example, it doesn't matter whether it's utilities doing storm restoration or it can be a city recovering from a flood or it can be any other community recovering from any disaster. That structure is the same. So everyone knows who's in charge of what and who to talk to regarding what they need or how you can help or what their responsibilities are. Always important.

Jill James:

Yeah. Guillermo, how long did you stay working directly in plants and then when did you make the switch into more education, which I believe is what your role is today?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, for me, once I went into the control centers, I did that for four or five years, I think it was six years. And then eventually, I got to work on the training side of that utility and they got me to work under as a support role in the training program for all the operators. Remember what I mentioned earlier that they wanted you to maintain 100 hours every three years?

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah.

Guillermo Sabatier

So that whole process, it's a required process within pretty much every utility that they have a training program and a training group. So that's where I got involved in that. And then from that point on, training was always part of my career going forward. I guess I also enjoy delivering training. I enjoy teaching others and I enjoy sharing knowledge. So for me, that seemed like a natural fit that I happened to enjoy. But at the same time, I got roped into compliance, which is a whole other aspect and especially in NERC regulatory compliance. And I guess I'm one of the few people that actually enjoys that because it's reading all of these standards and making sure the procedures and our processes fit. So that actually combines well with training because then you're able to teach others how to ...

Jill James:

Read and interpret those regulations.

Guillermo Sabatier

... reinterpret those. Exactly. And not just that, but then make sure they operate within those regulations, and more importantly, make sure you capture evidence.

Jill James:

Yeah, the paper trail, right?

Guillermo Sabatier

Yeah.

Jill James:

If you didn't document it, you didn't do it, right?

Guillermo Sabatier

You didn't do it. Exactly. Exactly.

Jill James:

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And so where has your career taken you? I'm guessing you're not necessarily working for one employer at that point in your career. Did you get to travel and experience and see lots of things?

Guillermo Sabatier

Within that particular industry, yes. I got to see quite a bit of different, usually during ... The weird thing about storms is that a lot of companies came to you to help you restore. So you got to experience what all these other shops did, right? Where there crews coming in, you get to see how they were slightly different and how they did things. Some of them were better and you picked up those new practices from them. Others you saw, "Ooh, they're still doing that," and then you will coach them on how to improve their processes. But for me, I think it was mid-pandemic where I left that utility and I went to work for what was then SOS, which then became part of HSI. And there, I came in as a director of international services, because back then, they were trying to expand their international division on that particular part of the industry.

Guillermo Sabatier

But for me, aside from just working in the utility, I also did quite a bit of trialing with conferences and workshops and seminars and always getting that exposure and always engaged in that whole professional development part of the business because things are always changing, especially with technology.

Jill James:

Yeah. Guillermo, assuming you got to work with people in different climates, you spent a big bulk of your career in Florida and hurricane response and seeing all that stuff, what was different when you got to work with organizations supporting other parts of the country where climate might come into play or did it, was it different in the way that people protected themselves?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, my first exposure to something dramatically different was the fact that was speaking to line workers that were working in areas that had snow and frost. And they were more concerned with heat in Florida because they're saying, "Well, you can only take off so many clothes before you're no longer safe to work. Whereas in the cold weather, you can always put on more stuff, insulation and keep working." And I thought about that, I was like, "Wow, you get to the point where you're so bulky, you can't move your arms." No, they got PPE that's also rated for the cold weather that they're in to protect their limbs and their ears and their noses and all that, but to me, it was really interesting how they can do that work in freezing temperatures.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's what-

Guillermo Sabatier

As a Floridian.

Jill James:

You grew up in Florida and I grew up in Minnesota and so I'm thinking of, "Gosh, the differences between the voltage is the same, but the weather conditions are certainly different."

Guillermo Sabatier

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, especially the whole handling of a bare piece of metal, you just don't do that in cold weather.

Jill James:

Yeah, right. Interesting.

Guillermo Sabatier

With bare hands anyway, I think.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. So you've spoken, just touched a little bit on total safety culture and observations that you've had. What are you noticing or what have you noticed over these years?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, one thing I've noticed is that there's definitely a lot more attention to make sure not only do we have zero injuries, but we also are very aware of the near misses. So a near miss just means you just happen to get lucky because that near miss was a hazardous condition that wasn't mitigated preemptively, right? And that is just as serious, if not more than an injury, because what happens there, it is like we all learn from an injury. Sadly, the injury happens, it's tragic and a lot of times avoidable, but the near miss oftentimes doesn't get addressed. And so that's something that I've noticed that they were paying more attention to. They got pretty good with the whole zero injury approach, but then the next stage, I think, was taking care of those near misses.

Jill James:

Guillermo, how do the utility industry, each ... How do they work together or do they work together to learn from one another across the country or across the globe?

Guillermo Sabatier

They certainly do. And there's a whole number of organizations and associations that are a part of that. OSHA's being one of them, of course. They have certain area that touches upon what the utility does. The IBEW, which is the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, is the unionized side of the business. They have a lot of ... They're quite the stakeholders in that process as well. Every union contract usually involves a large part of it is safety. Even the IEEE, which is the engineering side. The Institute of Electrical Electronics Engineers also has a say in that. And that's just three or four examples of a larger part of many more.

Guillermo Sabatier

So definitely there's a lot of knowledge sharing taking place and a lot of procedure writing that happens based on all that, but quite a bit of benchmarking as well. I know that in NERC, they would do a lot of NERC lessons learned, for example. A lot of that involved, for example, disturbances or human errors that cause an outage, right? But a lot of times there was also a component to it that involved a potential injury or a near miss and they would always address that and then the entire industry would see that as a lesson learned. So those are just a few examples of so many that I can think of.

Jill James:

Yeah. Guillermo, in the time you've been doing this and you've come across and had training from different environmental health and safety professionals and you've seen them in action, what sort of skills are different maybe? If people are listening and thinking, "Gosh, maybe I'm new in this field. Maybe I want to dip my toe into working in this field," are people who are doing the work of EHS in the utility industry have additional training and certifications like you do with NERC and things with FEMA or what do you know about how they approach their work?

Guillermo Sabatier

Okay, so let me think about that one. So if they're already in an EHS type of field and they're interested in getting into the utility landscape, in preparation to that, I think what I would expect is probably to learn a little bit more on ... I know that the FEMA has an aspect to it that relates to utility work and then restoration, those sorts of emergencies. One example that comes to mind is the whole wildfire situation in the western part of the country where a large component of that involves FEMA. Hurricanes, for example, here, really, it is being driven mostly by the utilities at this point, but I think the wildfires over there, that's taken a whole different look because now it involves governments, it involves, sadly, certain types of litigation and so their FEMAs were involved in that one as well. But it looks different, but it's still a crisis management aspect, right?

Jill James:

Yeah.

Guillermo Sabatier

Another thing I could think of for an EHS professional getting into this industry really is be open to the idea that, in the utility here, you're going to more than likely get a lot of training once you're already entering that role.

Jill James:

Got it.

Guillermo Sabatier

They'll send you in training quite a bit, at least what I've seen.

Jill James:

Okay. Yeah. That's great. That's great. Guillermo, I know that you also do some ... Your job is in education right now. You also have a podcast where you're connecting and talking about education as well. Tell us about that in case people are like, "Hey, I'm working in the utility industry. I didn't know something like that existed," or maybe they want to get into it and hear more. What do you do with your podcast?

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, this one actually is a video podcast and it usually airs every two weeks. And that one is more specific to the electric utility industry and energy, right? And on that, one of the things that ... First of all, I love having guests on that because usually it's a guest brings this wealth of knowledge and experience and [inaudible 00:42:50] to the show that educates all of us, right? One of the things that I really enjoy in that podcast, I think, is talking about new technologies that are applied or they're about to be applied in the industry. And for example, just the other day, they were talking about small modular reactors and how those are making a comeback, but along with those, there's a whole other aspect of manufacturing, delivery, transportation, installation, safety. So that on its own, the expectation there was one example, is that, whereas before you'd see one large nuclear plant, now you're going to see thousands of little ones.

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, that's something that they're saying could dramatically change our landscape when it comes to energy and also when helping us get to that zero carbon emissions goal. So from that aspect, that's something that we're talking a lot about in that podcast. Another one, of course, as well is the NERC preparation. Those videos get a lot of views from people wanting to know more about what to expect on the NERC exam. Now in there, I just go over five or six questions. I go into detail about them and why they answer them the way they do, but those got a lot of views.

Jill James:

Yeah. What's the name of the podcast?

Guillermo Sabatier

I'm sorry.

Jill James:

That's okay.

Guillermo Sabatier

It's called ThinkTech Hawaii and that's the platform and then my particular show is called Perspectives on Energy.

Jill James:

Perspectives on Energy. Okay.

Guillermo Sabatier

Right. And funny story how I got involved in that.

Jill James:

Yeah, please.

Guillermo Sabatier

So a while back, we were doing research on how some countries were getting away from deregulation and going back towards regulation. Meaning in the old days, everything was vertically integrated and highly regulated, right? And then here in Europe, that began to deregulate the industry, meaning that you could compete, right? Different utilities competed at different prices for retail customers and that went great, but then you had the days of Enron, for example, that changed perspectives and all that. And even now, we're seeing different things happen in certain markets. So in Mexico, they made a dramatic shift back towards regulation to the point that they were now, I think, the discouraging foreign investment in independently owned power plants.

Guillermo Sabatier

So I was asked to do some research about this and what that looks like internationally. And the only place I had, even an adequate discussion on what was happening was a video podcast from ThinkTech. So Great-

Jill James:

ThinkTech Hawaii.

Guillermo Sabatier

ThinkTech Hawaii, right? So I went in there. I reached out to everybody involved. The CEO writes back and then we have a conversation. He invites me on the show and he invites me on the show again. And I have another ... On his podcast, they have the different shows within ThinkTech and it's like, I think, about 30-40 shows in there. So then he says, "Hey, you're great at doing this podcast thing. Why don't you have your own show?" and so, "Okay." And then I ran it by my management here and they were like, "Sure, go ahead," and he says, "You can talk about everything relating to energy and the industry. You can even promote HSI to a certain degree."

Jill James:

Sure.

Guillermo Sabatier

And I've been doing it ever since.

Jill James:

And how long has that been? Yeah.

Guillermo Sabatier

Oh, Lord, I think I've been doing it since 2022.

Jill James:

Wow. Okay.

Guillermo Sabatier

Yeah. It's been over a year now, so-

Jill James:

Yeah, that's wonderful. And the videos you were talking about for NERC preparation, is that something different than the podcast?

Guillermo Sabatier

No, that is in the same podcast, right?

Jill James:

Same-

Guillermo Sabatier

So I get to choose the topics. So whenever I don't have a guest or anything like that, I'll go ahead and do and go over some sample questions from the exam.

Jill James:

Sure.

Guillermo Sabatier

And oddly enough, those get a lot of views. One of them has like 900 views ...

Jill James:

Wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

... one of those videos here.

Jill James:

Wow. So, gosh, I mean, I'm super curious how many people are walking around with NERC certifications now? I'm not expecting you to answer that question, but it sounds like there's a lot of people that need it to be able to work in support of the utility industry.

Guillermo Sabatier

I think it's several thousand people are certified at this time. The pass rate for that exam is about 63%.

Jill James:

Oh, wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

Which is not high, right?

Jill James:

Yeah.

Guillermo Sabatier

And then when they go through a preparation program like the one we offer, I think that number goes up to about 80-85 success rate.

Jill James:

Wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

So it is significant, but definitely, it's a very intimidating exam. It's not cheap to take. It's about $700 now from what I understand and it's required to work. So a lot of cases, these folks, they get hired to be an operator and then part of the condition of staying employed there is to pass the exam. So they're given a couple of chances, but eventually, they end up going back to where they came from ...

Jill James:

Wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

... if they have enough failed attempts, I guess.

Jill James:

How long does it take someone to take the exam? Is it like a several-hour exam?

Guillermo Sabatier

Yes. So that is a two-and-a-half hour exam. It's 120 questions and the preparation takes, I think, several weeks.

Jill James:

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, Guillermo, what else would you like to share about working in the utility industry and things that you've learned, things that you've seen?

Guillermo Sabatier

I've seen a lot of change and one of the most significant changes that I've seen happen over the last four to five years has been this growth of renewables. And a lot of it is driven by how we're addressing climate change and how we're addressing carbon emissions, right? And what I've noticed is that initially engineers, utility professionals, were not even at the table when it came to make policy or policymakers, when they were mandating all these, "You will have X amount of megawatts to be renewable or [inaudible 00:49:30]." And then a few years later, they understood the trouble that can cause if you didn't do it correctly. So now I'm noticing the engineers are finally at the table and helping make this transition a more controlled transition. For me, that's been one of the great changes, I think in that regard, going from what they had before to more renewables to now going through a more controlled approach when it comes to moving towards that carbon-free goal.

Jill James:

Yeah, and is that something that you're seeing nation by nation doing or is there a global effort?

Guillermo Sabatier

Sadly, I'm noticing it differs by nation. It differs by governments, right? And in some cases, for us, we're making great progress. We're making great progress in Europe, but we also saw what could happen when that's weaponized against you. We just saw what happened in Western Europe with this whole Ukraine crisis where they made a transition towards renewables, they shut down a lot of their nuclear and they shut down their coal. They were completely dependent on gas coming in from Russia. Well, that had a price, not having that variety in their portfolio.

Guillermo Sabatier

France, for example, I think it's 80% of their portfolio is nuclear. So for them, they had that flexibility, but at the same time, they're dependent on sourcing their fuel out of Africa. So a lot of geopolitical things happen, right? The other thing is emerging markets where it's like Latin America, Africa and other parts of the world. For every coal plant that we shut down here in the US, they crank up four or five new ones.

Jill James:

Wow.

Guillermo Sabatier

Right, right, in Latin America and other parts of the world. So that in itself is an interesting problem, right? Because how do you address that? That's proven technology that's cost-effective and reliable and they're commissioning brand new ones, these places. So that's one of the challenges, I think, we see in our industry from that regard.

Jill James:

Yeah. And those are some of the things that you talk about in your podcast too, I'm guessing?

Guillermo Sabatier

Yes.

Jill James:

Yes. Wow. Wonderful, wonderful. Well, Guillermo, I really appreciate you taking time with us today. Really appreciate it.

Guillermo Sabatier

Oh, Jill, thank you so much for having me and you're not kidding, this time flies by.

Jill James:

Well, it's fun and it's fun to learn and it's fun to learn from someone like you. And I'm not sure if we've had an electrical engineer on the show before, but my gosh, I really appreciate your perspective and the work that you do to support all of us being able to turn the lights on every day.

Guillermo Sabatier

Well, Jill, thank you for having me. And it's always great to share knowledge and experience and just to be able to just lend a perspective, right? That's such unusual. So definitely always a pleasure and then I've got to invite you to my show now.

Jill James:

Absolutely, absolutely. I'd love to. I'd love to. I don't know how much I can help the utility industry, but ...

Guillermo Sabatier

Oh plenty.

Jill James:

... I'll be happy to talk.

Guillermo Sabatier

Plenty.

Jill James:

Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much and thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human wellbeing, which is the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple podcast app or any other podcast player you'd like. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.