Jill James:

This is The Accidental Safety Pro, brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded January 11th, 2024. My name is Jill James, HSI's chief safety officer. And today, my guest is Elizabeth Johnson. Elizabeth is senior director of EHS at Mitsubishi Power Americas, and Elizabeth is joining us today from her office in Florida. Welcome to the show.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Thank you. So excited to be here.

Jill James:

Yeah. You've been a longtime listener, it sounds like, to the podcast.

Elizabeth Johnson:

I have. It's one of my favorite ones, especially one that I'm listening in the car or really on my hard days. I really like to circle back and remember why I'm in this field from such exceptional guests that you have.

Jill James:

Thank you. And thank you on behalf of all of the guests, which now includes you.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Oh, thank you.

Jill James:

Yeah. So what is your origin story? How did you accidentally find your way into this?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Well, I think, like multiple people on your show, I didn't start off obviously going, "I want to grow up and be a safety professional." Actually, being a safety professional was so just not in my radar growing up. So I actually am originally from Mississippi, and went to college and stumbled around college for a little bit, kind of going, "I don't really know what I wanted to do." And then 9/11 occurred, and I'm in my early 20s at this point, and I just said, "You know what? I really think that I needed to do more." And at that time, you're young and dumb, but I was smart enough to know that I probably should get my act together, just a little bit. And so, I actually joined the United States Army and spent about five years in the Army intelligence world. So if anybody's out there, part of the XVIII Airborne Corps, hello, brothers and sisters. And then there met my husband. We kind of started our family together, and then his career moved us around and we ended up in Tennessee. And when we were in Tennessee, I said, "You know what? I'm going to finish that bachelor's degree." And for anybody who's past 25, especially late 20s, early 30s, going back to school, especially if you're an undergraduate, I'm with you on that one. It's a challenge in itself. But graduated from Tennessee Tech with a geoscience degree, and everybody thinks it sounds really fancy. It's Google Maps on steroids for the most parts, mapping layers.

Jill James:

And why did you pick that?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Well, this was really close to what I was doing in the military. So I was part of military intelligence. I did a lot of radar and imagery analysis.

Jill James:

Okay.

Elizabeth Johnson:

So I thought, I was like, "Well, I'll go do that, get a degree in that, because then I can open up career doors, and I'll go work for the CIA. It'll be something fun, something cool." Did not happen.

Jill James:

I always wanted to do that too.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. Well, it sounds, I mean-

Jill James:

It sounds really cool, right?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. I don't know if y'all remember the show 24, but I'm like, "Yes, let's do our X-Files." That's, okay, just dating myself, but like, "X-Files. Let's go be secret squirrels." So not reality. But that's really, I wanted to give back and be a part of that, and I really loved it. And so, in that transition period of graduating college later in life, having this big dream of being some sort of super cool government agent, secret squirrel, and having that very quickly fizzle, because just from Chattanooga, Tennessee, options are slim. And so, look at some other jobs, and there was a job posting for the safety specialist with Department of Labor, and they needed somebody that had earth science and understand some of that aspects, and geoscience is an earth science degree. So I took earth science. I learned about dirt, and hard-

Jill James:

The plate tectonics.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And the plate tectonics, and soft dirt and hard dirt. And so, if you're ever in that Smoky Mountain region of Tennessee and North Georgia, dirt's important because they have slides and things. And so, they wanted a specialist that understood that for trenching purposes.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And I very distinctly remember sitting in the parking lot of the building waiting for my first interview and looking at notes, again, dating myself, because it wasn't smartphone, but looking at notes of what this was, Department of Labor, and this thing called OSHA, and I'm like, "What is this?"

Jill James:

What is it? Right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And so, somehow, I don't know how it was so entry-level. But somehow, I got a second interview, ended up getting the position, which was just fantastic. But anyway, I got into OSHA, and those first couple years in there was still trying to figure out how to spell OSHA, much less what it was supposed to be doing.

Jill James:

Yeah. Didn't you know, Elizabeth, it's a small town in Wisconsin?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah, exactly. God, actually, I have a sticker with that on my home office.

Jill James:

Do you?

Elizabeth Johnson:

It cracks me up every single time. But one of the things that led me to success in the beginning was, I was able to bring my military root cause analysis and investigation skills over, which the reward with that was, is that as I grew as an individual and as a EHS person, on the compliance side of things, I was able to get tougher and more high-profile cases. The negative side of that is that those tougher and high-profile cases were amputations, hospitalizations, and fatalities. And so, I really spent that last bit of my time frame with OSHA investigating those, learned so much. And it's funny, because my manager at the time, and I will... Please put this on air, because it's coming from a longtime OSHA compliance officer, and people don't ever believe me when I say this. He told me something that has stuck with me in my entire career, and it's been, "You have to walk into every situation knowing that you are not the subject matter expert, but it is your job to understand and to see the big picture of everything that's going on." And that has been the foundation of my entire career, right there.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. I similarly called my very first boss with OSHA, now almost 30 years ago, I don't know, maybe a couple of months ago, and I found him. He's long retired, and I said, "I'm calling to thank you for some things that you taught me back then." Similar to what you're doing. His things were maybe not as profound as what you just said, though in their simplicity, they were. His words to me were, "One, never park the state car in front of a bar."

Elizabeth Johnson:

Fantastic advice.

Jill James:

Which was fantastic advice to understand as a 20-some-year-old kid with a badge, like taxpayers care about these things, and it really mattered when I showed up in these tiny towns and I needed to use a bathroom before I set out into a company to inspect them, like, "Don't park in front of the bar." I parked in front of the fire department and walk to a bar to use a public bathroom. But his big thing was, "Always tell the truth. Never lie. Don't ever make up anything in your documentation. If you didn't take the notes on something, if you didn't take the photograph, don't try to remember. Don't guess at what it was. Just always be honest and tell the truth."

Elizabeth Johnson:

I think you and I might have had the same boss.

Jill James:

Really?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. I mean, mine, I still keep up with him periodically. And even now in my career, I'll be working with my team or on something that's going on, and I'll get down one of those tunnels, kind of rabbit holes, and I'll have that self-check moment, and I'll sit there and I'll go, "You know what? This is not what I was taught, and I need to take a step back. And really, am I approaching this with the right mindset?" I mean, again, that is being here to be a supporter, a helper, and an advisor, not a dictator.

Jill James:

That's right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Not a stop gate. Yeah. You got to love those. Just molds you through your whole life.

Jill James:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely, it did, yeah, for me too. I wanted to ask, when you were with OSHA and you happened to know a lot about soils and the earth, and you mentioned trenching and excavating and all the accidents and things that you investigated, did you end up being that sort of an expert within the division you worked for, or did it expand out from that?

Elizabeth Johnson:

So in my entire career with OSHA, I think I did one trench.

Jill James:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And so, yeah, "We need this person." And then what was work imagined versus worked reality. We ended up, actually, the time frame just didn't have a lot of trenching.

Jill James:

Yeah. I didn't either. And isn't that funny? Because it's been a special emphasis program with federal OSHA for as long as I can remember. But I did a lot of inspections, but never a collapse, and I did a lot of fatality investigations too. That's interesting.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. I didn't do what got my foot in the door as much as I thought I would.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. Yeah. I kind of became one of the... There was a couple of us in the office, and there was a lot of fatalities and incidents there at the end that, depending on what it was, it was more my alley. I definitely did more of the manufacturing or general business, and I had a counterpart that did a lot more of the construction side of things. But we would get that phone call, and who knows where we would end up?

Jill James:

That's right. Yeah. That's right. I'm sorry if we need to... When did you do your master's degree?

Elizabeth Johnson:

So, my master's degree. So I was with OSHA for a while, and then my husband, who actually just retired from the military, he got stationed in Savannah, Georgia. And then from there, I was working with a couple different companies and decided, "You know what? Georgia Tech had just offered a new master's degree program in occupational health and safety."

Jill James:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And I had this brainiac idea that I could work full-time and be a full-time master's student at Georgia Tech, and raise a child, and switch jobs, and renovate a house all at the same time.

Jill James:

I've had a point like that in my life as well. How'd that go for you?

Elizabeth Johnson:

I just know that I don't know what I was drinking at the time. But whatever it was, I'm not doing that again.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. No, I survived. I really do think that I have a wonderful piece of paper that hangs on the wall that says, "I have a master's degree from Georgia Tech." But I really do think the T-shirt that says, "I survived," fits better.

Jill James:

Yup. Sure.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Week one, it was a hybrid program. So we weren't on campus 24/7, just because where I was living, in Savannah, versus where Georgia Tech is, in Atlanta, it just wouldn't have been possible. So that was really good it was hybrid. But week one, they pulled all the students in there. And I'm sitting in a roundtable, and there's department heads of major corporations that are sitting in there that have got decades of experience on me at this particular time, and I'm sitting going, "What have I done?" And then the instructor comes in, and he gives us a half-hour lesson and he talks about some things, and he goes, "Okay. Well, the paper's going to be due on Friday, and it's going to be a quarter of your grade."

Jill James:

Ooh.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And I'm going, "I'm sorry? I'm still getting used to college. I'm not even sure where I parked my car. What?" And so, that was when I was going, "Oh, dear Lord, what have I done?" But ultimately, there was a paper. It was a significant portion of our grade, but it wasn't the whole portion of our grade, and there was lots of resources and support along the way. But it was just that Georgia Tech standard that was established at the beginning. And really, one of the best decisions I've ever made in my career is going back and getting that master's degree. Tech was phenomenal for me, so I recommend it.

Jill James:

Yeah. And you had worked with OSHA for how long before you started grad school?

Elizabeth Johnson:

So I had worked for OSHA a little bit over two years, and then my husband got stationed in Georgia. So Tennessee is a state plan state. Georgia is a fed, so couldn't transition over. And so, when I started working again in Georgia, I actually worked for a beer distribution company, and you want to talk about whiplash of culture change. Learned a lot with the beer company. But I was working for that company for about a year when I started my master's degree program. And so, this was... Gosh, what year is it? It's now 2024. So this was about eight years ago.

Jill James:

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, going from public... I mean, I'm sorry, government employment. And let's face it, you had worked for the government, for the Army, and then for the state, and then you went into private sector. Yeah. That's a shock to the system. Well, I did the same thing. I didn't have the military piece though. I worked as a civilian on a base for a while. What was the thing that was the most shocking to you going from government to private?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Well, first of all, I'll say this: If anybody is, especially from an EHS standpoint, going from rigid government experience for about 10 years and then going into the private sector, choosing a beer company to go into adds another layer of the shock. So I'm going to just go ahead and lay that there. But I will say, I think the biggest thing for me, especially at the time, was the lack of understanding of regulations and what regulations means, because especially with the military, you have rules. There are rules. You don't really question them. You know your boundaries. You know how you can operate. OSHA was very much the same way. It's not 100% black and white. There's definitely some gray in there, but it's a rule block. And so, either you follow the rules or you kind of don't, and I say that with a big asterisk next to that. But there's that standard. And so, going into that public... Sorry, the private industry, especially with a beer company, especially with a sales team that are 21 to 25 years old, and there's commercials with knights and swords and phrases that are now ingrained in my head, but there's a lot of, "Are you sure we have to do that?" And it was just kind of that shock of having to sell safety and going behind people. That was the biggest one. You knew it was going to be a challenge, but that transition of having listened to so many EHS professionals on the compliance side, and them going, "We're doing our due diligence. We're doing our best." And I'm going, "Yeah. Okay. Blah, blah." And then being there going, "Oh, gosh. I get it." And so, there's probably a couple of people that I need to write apology letters for, but just know that I'm sorry. If my name rings a bell, I'm sorry.

Jill James:

I had a similar experience, similar thing. Every time I would leave a company that I had inspected, I'd get in my car and I'd be like... The car that wasn't parked in front of the bar.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yes, exactly.

Jill James:

I was so happy that I wasn't the one that was going to have to carry out all that stuff. I'm like, "This job is so hard." And then I became the person that had to carry out all of the stuff and, "Oh, right. No one will listen to you. It doesn't matter how much you cite the gospel of OSHA. It doesn't matter. You've got to have some skills on selling, and brevity."

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. Absolutely. And then just deep breathing techniques. I think that's the other key.

Jill James:

Oh, is that why in my spare time, I teach a breath and meditation class?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. Probably. It's probably subconscious.

Jill James:

I'm so happy we're figuring out everything, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jill James:

All the things. It's a new year. Elizabeth's the first guest of 2024, and we're getting it all figured out. Oh, I'm sorry. Let's bring this back to, you're in the private sector, first time. You're in grad school. What else is going on?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Oh. I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on in my personal life, kids, dogs, all of that sort of stuff, just the typical things here of that. And then during all of that, I got an opportunity. I got a phone call from somebody, and said, "Hey, Savannah has a major aircraft manufacturer there." And I got a phone call from a friend of mine, who's also in the safety world, and says, "Hey, they have an opening that I think you'd be really, really good at, and it's got a career path." And he knew at the time that even though I had a great job with the beer company, I didn't really necessarily have a career path or some other things that I was really looking for for longevity, and he's like, "Throw your name in the hat, because these opportunities with this organization doesn't come up often." And I was like, "Well, sure, why not? I'll throw my name in the hat." Long story long, I guess at this point, I ended up getting the role at this aircraft manufacturer, which was huge. And so, it was really my first time in manufacturing. Things are going fantastic. I'm enjoying things. Life is great, and then COVID hit. And COVID did wonderful things for the EHS field, looking back at everything that happened over those, especially, first two years, really kind of the first three. But for my career at that time, companies were shutting down. People were sending shifts home. You can't manufacture an aircraft from your garage. So there's a lot of challenges and things of that nature. And even though my job was 100% secure, I was losing some of my resources. Plus, I was also becoming the HR point of contact, the security point of contact, because I was one of the few essentials that was allowed to come in. And made a tough decision mid-COVID, the fall of COVID, so the fall of 2020, to transition and take an opportunity with Mitsubishi Power Americas at their manufacturing site that was also located in Savannah. That was interesting, to transition roles-

Jill James:

In a pandemic.

Elizabeth Johnson:

... during the pandemic. So you're meeting everybody virtually, and you're not really sure what's going on and everything. But it ended up being just, again, a fantastic decision. I've been with Mitsubishi Power Americas since then and have loved every single minute of it, and it's just a great organization for me.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. Elizabeth, when you mentioned that COVID was good for the EHS profession, if anyone listening is like, "I agree with that," "I disagree with that," or "I wonder what the heck she's talking about," what did you think is good?

Elizabeth Johnson:

So I think at the time when everybody was waist-deep and trying to figure out what was going on, the individual stress, I think, we all had during that was not great. However, looking back, we've never experienced that before in our EHS kind of culture, especially the last 30, 40 years, something that significant. And all of a sudden, for those of us who were trying to get into meetings and get into conversations and getting into planning and getting into leadership decision-makings, those doors were just thrown wide open for most of us. And all of a sudden, we're not only essential worker. We're also essential to the business. And while we were always vital, we were always key to be a part of... component to any business. It bumped us up in a lot of ways. And this is very broad, of course, talking about it as a culture. But just talking to a lot of my peers, it's like, "Yeah. We're now part of five-year strategy plans. We're now part of operational meetings. We're part of sales meetings now."

Jill James:

Yeah. Got a seat at the table for... Many, many, many of us got a seat at the table that we've never had before.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Absolutely. I mean, and it ripples effects, because I think a lot of us saw better opportunities, which led to a whole slew of either leadership promotions or career paths or financial gains and things of that nature. We've seen the ripple effect of that as a broad, not everybody. Unfortunately, there's a lot of challenges and layoffs and things throughout that entire time frame. But as a field, for the most part, I really do think it improved us and put us in a place that we weren't before.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I agree. I agree. I've spoken with many of our cohorts who feel the same, and that we can't slide back into what was either. It's like, "We elbowed our way in. We're at the table. Gosh, we're staying here."

Elizabeth Johnson:

Oh, absolutely. Do not give up that seat. That's the only thing I can say, is don't give up that seat.

Jill James:

Yeah. Elizabeth, what made you fall in love with this career?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Gosh, there are so many things. My core, things that bring me joy, is service. I think it's kind of funny. We talk to people who take that love language, like, "What's your love language?" And mine's acts of service, which, ironically, also plays directly into my career, because I love helping people. I really, really honestly do. And the thing, and maybe it's because growing up in Mississippi, which is, it's a challenging, different place to grow up than some of our other places across the country, but always trying to help out that person that's doing everything that they can to provide for themselves and their family. They shouldn't have to really sacrifice their safety for that.

Jill James:

That's right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And that's always been that motivation factor for me, is not the newest, not the most longevity, but every single person that's in our team, in our community. There's nothing that we do as an organization that should trump their personal health and safety.

Jill James:

That's right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And so, being able to continually remind people of that, and then also be a part of the team that improves the quality of their work life. That just brings me joy. It just makes me happy. Maybe it's just free donuts in the break room, like, "Great. We can do donuts," or maybe it's shoes that don't quite fit and talking to somebody, saying, "Hey, well, why don't you try this other brand?" And they get the right PPE that fits, and it feels good. I mean, those little things are just-

Jill James:

Game changers. Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. For me, the little things are the big impacts for me.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. When you think about where you're at in your career now, yeah, what's on the horizon for you now? What are you thinking about, looking at your career and from its vantage point today?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Well, I try not to think about where I am a whole bunch, just because, one, I don't want to admit how old I'm getting. That hurts a little. The gray hairs are strong. But the two, sometimes I have to pinch myself, going, "You know what? I'm a head of EHS for a major corporation." And it doesn't always sink in, because I just still feel like I'm a field EHS person. I want to be with the team and out there. So that's part of it. But really, as I transition into this second chapter of my life and of my career, when 401(k)s and retirement plans are really starting to become more of a weekly conversation, and not something that my parents did-

Jill James:

Same here.

Elizabeth Johnson:

... I'm like, "First of all, what am I doing getting old? This is just dumb." But really, it's now looking at the next generation of EHS professionals. I really hope that COVID was the big thing from... Between 9/11 and COVID, it's really been the two major events for my career, and I really hope that that's it. We don't need to trump either one of those.

Jill James:

Yup.

Elizabeth Johnson:

So it's really now looking at the next generation. And we have some fantastic coordinators on our team here, and they started their EHS career in COVID, which is mind-boggling to me. It's like, they had the internet in their hands when they were born. I know life before the internet. So they don't know EHS life before COVID. And so, looking at them and investing in them and their professional development, because they're going to conquer something else, and giving back to them and making sure that they have the tools in their toolbox to be successful is really what I'm passionate about. And not just for our teams, but really for our field, is setting up this next generation of EHS professionals.

Jill James:

Yeah. And when you're meeting... I mean, it sounds to me, Elizabeth, that you're doing mentoring.

Elizabeth Johnson:

A little bit.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. What are the things that you think are important for this next generation that's coming after us and is starting right now? What are the things that you're sharing with them that you feel are important for them to know and develop?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. I think, well, one, obviously, the education piece, like the days of being the person who was a worker that got injured and they had a really good story, and then they became the safety person.

Jill James:

Yes. I teach our sales team about that all the time. I'm like, "Sometimes you're going to have someone whose background in education has a PhD, and sometimes they're going to be the injured person archetype." And they look at me and go, "What?" I'm like, "Yeah, that's a thing. That's a thing."

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. And not that that's not a great way to get into our field, but-

Jill James:

Yes. Yes. That's absolutely true. Yes.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as they get the technical expertise along the way. So the education part is very, very close to my heart, and I could probably get on a soapbox about it.

Jill James:

Yeah, do that. Do that, because you know what? The other person who will get on the soapbox with you is a guest that everyone's heard a few times, Dr. Todd Loushine. So yes, Elizabeth, go for it.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Really? No, I really do feel that from a field standpoint, OSHA was created in 1970, so we're really just about 50 years old as a field. And that's very, very young when you compare us to doctors or engineers, who've been around for centuries, their education path to support them in their field. And so, I really would love to see EHS, occupational health and safety, safety engineering, things of that nature that deal with occupational, become much more of a career path opportunity for the new generations. I have a high schooler. You go to Career Day with her. And if I'm not there, there's not another person that's advocating for occupational health and safety to be a norm. And so, I really would love to see that on the big scale. And I really would love to see our universities and college take advantage of that seat that we earned at the table during COVID and develop that career path for people to come into our field, because as we continue to grow as a country, we have to have these fields, and they have to be educated, because we're just not... You can say a lot of things, but you really need that technical expertise as well. But kind of going back to your original question about some of the other stuff, that looking and mentoring, I'm really working with my rookies and, really, the whole team, because it goes back to that seat-at-the-table bit that we talked about, is you can be as technically educated in EHS as you can possibly be. You can go to every single training, every single class. You can have your whole OSHA deck of certifications, all of that. But if you don't have soft skills for communication or soft skills for being a manager or a leader, you're not going to transition, and you're not going to keep moving forward in your career. And so, I think that's something that I've seen personally in my career, that we have phenomenal technical experts that are some of the smartest people I've ever met, but they don't have that soft-skill approach. And so, their message gets lost.

Jill James:

Yeah. And so, when you talk with people about that, what are you advising them to do in terms of upskilling themselves? What resources, training? If you were to lay out a menu of things you could recommend to people, what would you say they are, and where should they pursue them?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Well, obviously, I recommend some podcasts. I do, and that sounds cheesy. And it's not a plug, because you didn't nudge me to say that.

Jill James:

No.

Elizabeth Johnson:

But honestly, it truly, honestly is, because I think you could learn a lot from the leaders, especially the leaders that you have on this podcast and then some just other podcasts, where you have strong leadership skills that may not necessarily be talking directly about EHS, but of just how to be a coach, how to be a mentor, how to be a salesman. I mean, all of that is those key soft skills. So that's part of it. And I think that that really helps, especially reaching some of our new generation. They really gravitate towards the podcast, and it's a great resource. There's a lot of other ones that are really free. I mean, LinkedIn Learning has several courses for soft skills that helps you. I know my organization, my company, we have different classes based off of, "Are you a new manager? Are you a supervisor? Are you more seasoned?" And again, it has nothing to do with our particular field, but I encourage all of them to take it, because it's a skill set that they need to have.

Jill James:

Yeah. HSI, same thing within our organization and the way that we serve our customers. Again, same thing, like courses on how to have difficult conversations.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yes.

Jill James:

De-escalation techniques, how to run an effective meeting, all of those kind of things that we're certainly not taught in our undergrad and graduate schools, though I will say that my grad program did include a short lesson on Robert's Rules of Order, but that's about it. And I don't know if we call that a soft skill. I'd call that business etiquette.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. Well, I was also saying that, "How did you make that into a short lesson?" But sure, we'll go with that.

Jill James:

Yeah. I know. I learned enough to be dangerous-

Elizabeth Johnson:

Exactly.

Jill James:

... and know what a quorum means. Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. Exactly, like we saw it. But no, I mean, I think a lot of it too is that, and I see it in myself and I see it in a lot of our EHS professionals, is that because we are such a rule-following field, you have your rules, we have to follow them, in order to be an effective communicator, we have to be able to communicate and inspire people to do the correct thing, and it's hard to do that when we're doing crime and punishment safety. And what I mean by that is that we see somebody who does something and we completely say, "You did it wrong. You're in trouble." That doesn't move the needle anywhere. So we have to be able to develop those soft skills that says, "Hey, see that there was a mistake. How can we support you in ensuring that this doesn't happen again? Can we change a policy? Can we change a procedure? Can we offer a class?" or a simple, like, "Hey, did you even know that this is not the preferred behavior? Let's show you the right way to do something." And that's key communication. You can have it on paper. You can have computer-based training all day long, but you have to have somebody that can inspire someone to do the behavior that you want them to do.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite books, if I'm going to shout out a leadership book, is Brené Brown's Dare to Lead book.

Elizabeth Johnson:

I love that book.

Jill James:

Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Tell me which pieces stand out to you. I mean, there's things that I've just adopted and do based on that book, because there are certain pieces that she teaches that are so formulaic.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. No. It's funny that you bring that up, because we just chose that from one of our leadership books. It was last year. And we had a huge conversation, which is really funny, because when you get a whole bunch of senior leaderships from different backgrounds in there and you start talking about Dare to Lead and everything, and it cracks me up thinking about that. So, sorry, left turn there, ramble a bit. No. I think her bit with what she really done, it was just really kind of accepting where you are. And I can't remember now exactly what chapter it was, but she was talking about the principles of leadership and how to maintain where you are. And I remember this from our discussion that we had in that work session, is to kind of stick to where you are, but able to deliver it in a manner that still kind of goes with a more... Oh, gosh. Now my mind's gone blank. Not compliant, but-

Jill James:

Yeah. She's got a piece, I think, about the color, the context. When you're facing a situation, the commentary... It was like four or three Cs or something in order to... Gosh. Okay, everybody, you're just going to have to go get this book.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. But it was something about... I mean, it's like taking responsibility, but it's the potential... Something about staying true to your core and taking that responsibility, but then also kind of seeing what the process is for people in the development aspect of it. So it was like, even the conflicts were opportunities for you to grow and everybody else around you to grow from a leadership standpoint, because-

Jill James:

Yeah. I know what you're talking about. One of the exercises in that book has individuals determine what their core value is, and then how that core value in your life can be the piece that you hold onto that directs and informs how and why you make decisions. And so, you're essentially looking at all of these words. Do you remember this in the book, Elizabeth? There are all of these words, and you're like... There's directions on whittling down, whittling down, whittling down until you get to your core value.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yes.

Jill James:

And for me, the word is dignity, and that's how I approach my work.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. No. I think what we're talking, if I remember, God, because I'm ancient. I feel like I'm ancient anyway. One of the things that stuck out about with me with her book is that it really also relates back into really the human performance mindset with EHS, and that was one of the things that we pushed out. Again, if I remember this, maybe it was about a year ago. We pushed this out. And I also pushed this back to some of my leaders on my team, and went and said, "Hey, we're talking about human performance, and we're talking about getting down into the weeds to understand why people made the decisions that they made that resulted in what we've resulted." And so, some of the aspects in her book about looking at those opportunities, whether it's a positive conflict or a negative conflict, but really to determine what it was that we can learn from it, from either the person you're dealing with or the person internal. Anyway, I just thought it was a great connection that it was a non-human performance book, but it was really adapting a lot of the human performance aspects, and it was.

Jill James:

It really did. Yeah. It really did. And she's got a mantra called, "Clear is kind." And so, when you're redirecting someone or you're just... Maybe you have to say no to something.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yes.

Jill James:

It's not making like, "Oh, well, I'd like to say, blah, blah, blah." No, clear is kind.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. Which is funny. I mean, when you start talking about manager skills with it and that direct... You can be direct, but you can be cruel. You can be direct, and you can be kind about it.

Jill James:

Yes. Yes.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And that is, I think, a skill that just about every EHS person really should master, because we continually have those conversations, whether you're talking about senior leadership or you're talking to the person who just started. We can't skirt around our policies and procedures. But at the same time, we don't necessarily have to be, "But again, crime and punishment safety," with that. Yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Elizabeth, in the terms of skills, what do you think about... We're talking about soft skills. I wouldn't say that writing and the ability to write well is a soft skill, but what do you see in terms of the written word and how that works in our career? And is that something that you talk with your mentees about as well?

Elizabeth Johnson:

I do, because my... I take it back. My teenage self sitting in English class would have been like, "It doesn't matter. I can get my point across." My adult self, having to work through investigations, having to work with legal teams, having to work with government agencies, all of the sort of things, really seeing how that one paragraph that was kind of sloppily written, but maybe the measurements were correct, can have a positive or negative impact on what we're trying to accomplish. Writing skills are critical. They really are almost a mandatory job function. And everybody comes from diverse backgrounds. Everybody comes from different education levels, and that is A-okay. But we can't skip over that key function, just because it's critical for us to be clear and concise and kind and put it in a level where people can understand.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And it's really funny, because we've got... Throughout my career, I mean, I've worked with people who are far more intelligent than I am.

Jill James:

Same.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Far more, on so many levels. But if they're going to send you an email, it's practically a dissertation, and it's written as if I, too, have a PhD in whatever you're talking about. And I look at it, I'm like, "This is great, but I need you to dumb it down for me. And not that it has to be so simple, but you have to be respectful about who your audience is."

Jill James:

That's right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And it's not just about language, but it's the level that we do, and it has to be understandable.

Jill James:

Yeah. Making no assumptions on what your audience may or may not know about the topic you are trying to educate or inform on.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. I mean, we could do some phenomenal training that's got tons of big words and all sorts of stuff, but it's not going to go anywhere. It's not going to be impactful.

Jill James:

Right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And so, the written word is critical. And then I tell everybody on my team, I said, "If it is attached to the company, the company owns it, and that means that the company can call upon it at any time. And so, that's how the company is going to see you."

Jill James:

Yup.

Elizabeth Johnson:

So if you're full of emojis, and I'm an emoji person, I will put a smiley face on an email in a heartbeat. But if you're communicating like it's a text message, then just know that that may be called into court. Yes.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. You're an extension of the brand, and you're absolutely... That's absolutely right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah. I think my hardest writing lesson going from government sector to private sector was... Well, one of the hardest lessons was with the written word, going from being able to write documentation that would stand up in court and that would support a citation, and would make the attorneys generals that I worked with go, "Thanks, Jill. You do such a great job with documentation." And you're like, "Yay, me!" And then you go into private sector, and my first email I got from a boss was less words, three bullet points, "Tell me if we're ahead, behind, or on the curve."

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yup.

Jill James:

And I'm like, "Oh, crap. Oh, crap."

Elizabeth Johnson:

It's funny that you say that, going back to the OSHA standpoint. So my boss from OSHA, who I love and adore, but he was tough love. You would go on an investigation that could last days, weeks, months, depending on what it was. You would spend days, weeks, not quite months. We did have that.

Jill James:

You did have a time frame. Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

We did a time frame.

Jill James:

Under 30 days. Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

We'll just say long hours. Long hours, putting your heart and soul into this investigation. I mean, we talked about it before. Make sure that every... I mean, down to the millimeter, of inches, and all of your facts are right, and you're clicking all the boxes, and it's just, because you're writing this with the mind frame that this is going to go to court and you're going to have to testify it, and all the details have to be there, even though every case never did all of that.

Jill James:

Yes.

Elizabeth Johnson:

We do it. And you turn it in, and we would turn to him to review it. And you would put it in a folder, manila folder, on his desk, and he would just look at you and go, "I'll review it and get it back to you." And you're like, "Okay." The next morning, you would walk in and you would open up that folder, and I swear it was like a chain saw massacre. He would have a red pen, and he always did it in red, because you had to print it all out.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yes.

Elizabeth Johnson:

So all of my environmentalists, I apologize. We would have to print it all out, put it in a folder, and you'd open it up, and there were just... At the beginning of my career, it would be these little lines out of these sentences and maybe a question on the side, like, "Add this," or "No, don't word it that way," and all that sort of stuff. And so, at the beginning, it was like, "Okay. He's teaching. I'm going to learn this. I'm going to get the hang of it." I learned real quickly that there was never going to be a report that went through him without some red on it somewhere or another.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

And as my career progressed, I would get these reports back, and it would just be two paragraphs just circled. And on the side of it, it would have "WTF." And so, I'm having to go back and reread these two paragraphs, trying to figure out-

Jill James:

What was it? Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

... "What portion of this? Is it all of it? Is it one sentence?" It was the first time I started racking my brain on, and it used to drive me insane.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson:

But again, going back to the written word, it really, really taught me what is important, what is not important, what is just noise that doesn't get it, what's critical. And then, yeah, coming back into the private sector, yeah, "What's our bullet points? What's our KPIs? Are we on target?"

Jill James:

That's right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah.

Jill James:

That's right.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah. This is wonderful, Elizabeth. Absolutely wonderful. As we start to close out our time today, yeah, are there thoughts that you'd like to leave the audience with?

Elizabeth Johnson:

Yeah. I think really, one, I just want to say thank you for inviting me on here to talk to you. I absolutely am just... I'm on cloud nine. But then, two, one of the things I love so much about your podcast in particular, and I kind of talked about this in the beginning, is realizing this is our community of peers. And good days, bad days, we've all had them, but it's such a refresher, and really, really encouraging for me that we continue to come together as a peer group and support each other, through the good days, through the bad days, through the lessons learned, because again, I am not the smartest person in the room and never want to be, because I want to be able to continue to learn from everyone else. And so, I just take a moment to look to see what you're leaving behind. I guess that's because I'm in that transition phase of my years that I'm going to be left working, is a lot shorter than once the years that I've been in working so far. And so, yeah, I mean, what are we leaving behind? What are we leaving for the next generation? And I think if we continue to focus on that, I think we're going to be setting this next group up pretty good.

Jill James:

Beautiful. Well said. Thank you so much, and it's been a joy to have you on the show. Thank you.

Elizabeth Johnson:

Thank you.

Jill James:

And thank you all for spending your time today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May your employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is at the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe on iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more safety and health professionals like Elizabeth and I. Special thanks to Emily. That's the next E I'm talking about. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.