#116: Advice From HSI's CEO: Approaching Leadership, Mentorship, and the Three Es

Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro, brought to you by HSI. This episode is recorded May 13th, 2024. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer, and today my guest is Chad Birckelbaw. Chad is Chief Executive Officer at HSI, and yes, that makes him my boss. So why am I bringing my CEO to our podcast? Well, this is a special month for the podcast. May is the Accidental Safety Pro's anniversary month, and 2024 marks its sixth anniversary, six years of hearing and sharing our collective stories and experiences. And yes, after all of this time, I continue to love recording these episodes, as a way to archive and honor our collective work. In celebration, I wanted to ask Chad why he supports the work of this podcast, what he's learned about the EHS profession, whether his journey to support our profession was accidental, like all of us. And I wanted to dig into how we can best align and gain support from our leaders, people like Chad. Chad's joining us today from Dallas, Texas. Welcome to the show.

Chad Birckelbaw:

Thank you, Jill, for having me. It's good to finally be on with you, and congratulations on your anniversary.

Jill James:

Thank you. Appreciate that. So at the Accidental Safety Pro, we always start by asking people about their journey. So would you mind sharing the little bit about the landscape of your early life?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, for sure. So landscape is appropriate. So I grew up in a smaller city in central Illinois. Bloomington, Illinois, right in the middle of the state. The largest employer there was an insurance company, and I think the second-largest employer was a university. I grew up cutting yards and making money that way, and doing something that probably, I don't even know if it's still a thing today, walking beans was one of my first jobs. I had an uncle who owned a farm and they raised soybeans, and corn, and other stuff, and every year we'd go out there and walk the beans. So it was a good upbringing. My dad grew up, he's a truck driver as I was growing up, and it's funny you talk about Accidental Safety Pro. I know we'll get into this, but I recall those rare occasions of getting to go to the warehouse, and how magical that was as an eight-year-old kid with all of the things that were there, the ramps, the semi trucks, the forklifts, the boxes of food. It was a really cool experience, captivating at the age of eight years old.

Jill James:

I had a similar experience. I mean, Chad, this was probably at the time where you and I could go into our parents' workplaces. My dad worked in a factory and I was able to do the same thing, walk across the street from my school into the place where he was working, also doing truck driving at some point. So that's interesting that we have that in common, and I could just hang out and observe, and I thought it was so fascinating. It was so fascinating.

Chad Birckelbaw:

I agree.

Jill James:

And eventually I got to sell Girl Scout cookies there, all that stuff. All that stuff. Yeah. So I just want to ask about walking beans. What do you do in the fields when you're walking beans? I'm familiar with corn detassling where I'm from in my neck of the woods. But what is walking beans?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, so corn detassling was the other job that went on in the summertime. Walking beans is when they used to plant them in rows, and I think now they drill the beans, so there's really no space between the rows, but you'd go and clear out the weeds, the corn that was left over from the year before, or any weeds that had propped up or popped up, so that you didn't clog the combine when they actually harvested the beans. And so, you'd be up early in the morning out there before it got too hot, and you'd walk through these soybeans, and of course your jeans would be soaked, because of the dew that was on there, but you'd try to be out of their field by noon, because it had gotten too hot and you were too tired, and too wet from clearing the weeds out of there during the year.

Jill James:

That sounds like a hard job.

Chad Birckelbaw:

It was a job. It was fun. It was actually fun in hindsight. It was one of those things that, like many things, you learn from some of the toughness. It builds toughness and grit to get up there and do that.

Jill James:

That's right. That's right. Yeah. So you grew up in Illinois. Did you go to college in Illinois too? And what did you pursue?

Chad Birckelbaw:

I did. I actually went to a local university. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say the name on the podcast.

Jill James:

Of course.

Chad Birckelbaw:

I went to Illinois State University, which was in my hometown. The reason I went there, it was a good school and it is a good school, but I also, I lived at home and it allowed me to save money by living at home. But I pursued business, I have a degree in business administration. Why did I pick business? I had to pick something, right? And I was sort of, I guess I would say I sort of a gift for numbers, and certainly a fascination with people, and how they interact and behave from a management and leadership perspective. So it was one of the things I always aspired to be a coach of some setting, and I ended up pursuing the different jobs that I've had kind of leading me up to this point.

Jill James:

Yeah. So you pursued business. What were some of those first jobs, and did any of them happen to cross into the EHS world in any way?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, my first, I have multiple jobs, but my first kind of post degree job, I was a commercial insurance underwriter for property and casualty. So I would help agents underwrite the risk associated with different businesses, so that we could ultimately provide the insurance. So yeah, for sure. It's funny, one of the things, you and I were together recently at a industry event, and I heard you talk about the exits in the room and making sure you sort of knew where those were. Growing up as a commercial underwriter, with my first kind of post-graduate job, I still kind of fall back into that trap a little bit, where I go into a room, I look at the exits, I look at the sprinkler system, I always tend to what kind of construction is this, and those types of things. So from a risk management perspective, certainly I think there's some overlap with the clients that we serve today.

Jill James:

Your eyes were trained early on to catch those sort of things. Yeah, that's interesting. So as you moved along in your career, what are some of the other stops along the way, and did you pursue any other certifications along the way?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, so I did pursue a couple of certifications. I'm an associate in risk management, which is an insurance designation, and I'm also a CPCU, which is a chartered property and casualty underwriter, which is a series of, at the time that I did, I think it was a series of 10 different exams that you had to sit for in order to achieve that designation. But I went to work for the insurance company. I moved around, spent some time in Illinois, had the opportunity to spend some time in Arizona for a couple of years, and then got to see the corporate side of this large insurance company that I worked for, in different roles, in different leadership jobs before landing in Texas. My most recent job before coming to HSI, I had went to work for a startup that was a medical cost-containment company. Basically, we reviewed high-dollar workers' compensation claims on behalf of self-insured employers and insurance companies. So I joined that company, ended up leading that company for a period of time before we exited it to another strategic buyer.

Jill James:

Well, I think this officially makes you an accidental safety. I mean, you just ticked a couple of boxes that anyone listening is going to be like, "Property, casualty. Yep. Have that responsibility. Medical cost-containment, self-insurance workers' compensation. Yep." A lot of people listening have those responsibilities as well. Welcome to the fold. I think you're one of us.

Chad Birckelbaw:

Thank you. Thank you.

Jill James:

That's great. Yeah. Yeah. So Chad, you could be CEO anywhere. Why HSI? When you're considering that next move, like you said, you're with the medical last and then you could make a move anywhere. What were you considering at that time, why did you choose HSI?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, good question. So a couple of things. One is the company that owns HSI at the time, I had a prior relationship with, I had led another company that they owned. So I had some pre-existing relationship with how they did business, and we had a vision of what the organization could ultimately be. From an HSI perspective, I think one of the things that intrigued me was the opportunity to get on the front end of the safety side. My prior job, I talked about the medical cost-containment. Our involvement was always after something had happened, and I was always intrigued by the possibility of having an impact on the front end. And so, that was intriguing to me. I also thought there was an opportunity to do something unique, just given the size of the business and the opportunity to do some acquisitions, to build out a portfolio of solutions, to make it a little bit easier for our customers to do their job. And so, the possibility of the art of what was possible and the opportunity were the two things that also intrigued me to the organization. And the fact, look, I thought I could make a difference. I thought what the business did or could do would also make a difference from an organization perspective.

Jill James:

Yeah, beautiful. Focusing on that prevention side, yeah. And you've been with HSI how many years now, Chad?

Chad Birckelbaw:

I just celebrated my eighth anniversary as CEO of HSI on May 9th.

Jill James:

Oh, congratulations. Oh, two anniversaries in one. That's awesome. Congratulations.

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, thank you.

Jill James:

So when you started with HSI, HSI was a little bit of a baby company and had a little bit of a different focus than it does today. What was the baby iteration like in terms of what it's grown into?

Chad Birckelbaw:

For sure. We've changed a little bit, right? And you've been along for a good part of that journey with us. When I joined HSI, the primary focus or the primary solution and offering that we had was CPR, first aid, and certification. We are still today the third-largest provider of CPR and First Aid certifications. And I always say the largest private provider of First Aid and CPR certification, but that was sort of the iteration where we ultimately morphed into was to become more of a digital software and a technology company, that enabled and empowered EHS professionals, and HR leaders, and risk leaders to simplify the things that they do and the tasks that they have, and ultimately to achieve our mission, which is making the workplace safer and smarter. And so, that's the journey that we've been on for the last eight years, and certainly we've had a lot of growth. You've joined us as part of an acquisition. We were extremely fortunate for that, and we continue to transform the business and make sure that we're skating to where our customer's needs are.

Jill James:

It's been a fun ride. It's been a fun ride. So in terms of the EHS profession and the years that you've now spent in support of the profession with HSI, what have you learned about what it is that we do?

Chad Birckelbaw:

It's pretty remarkable. You have an outside view of what you think roles do, and then you start to interact with them more in this chair. And certainly, obviously you have a perspective that you share. I'm always amazed by the number of hats that in EHS professionals, that they wear in their daily job. There's a constant toggle between having strong technical expertise, when you think about OSHA, and CFR codes, and MSHA, or EPA regulations, etc. And then the ability is to triage and prioritize what life throws at you during the day, which oftentimes are very high stakes interactions with employees, or incidents that are unfolding in real time. And the third thing is, I think it requires, and I notice this about our customers when I interact, is an elite ability to communicate, which is required as you think about the importance of persuading people up in the organization for resources and support, as well as down into the organization to behave a certain way and to follow certain rules, or procedures, or guidelines that you want to do in terms of an influence perspective. So it's really a combination of the technical skills prioritization and this ability to really communicate effectively across the organization. There's a lot to it.

Jill James:

Yeah, there is a lot to it. Yeah. Thanks for recognizing that. In different positions that I've had in my career, it's been same thing, where in my previous role before coming to HSI, I had to literally write myself a note, put it on my computer to remember to go back to my objectives and key results for a particular quarter, because there was always a fire coming in the door. There was always something that was derailing me from that core, those core set of things that I needed to do. So I started to do a look back after a while and went, I'm just firefighting. And firefighting doesn't build anything that lasts. And so, I had to remind myself to go back to those core things, because you're right, it is a bit of a harried profession sometimes.

Chad Birckelbaw:

For sure. For sure.

Jill James:

Yeah. So what does it feel like to support this profession?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Two things kind of jump out. One is, look, there's an immense amount of gratification that happens, because what our customers do and our clients do is really, really important. And so, that's gratifying to be able to support them on that journey. But there's also a seriousness to it and a sense of responsibility, because you think about the tools and solutions that we provide, that has a direct impact on the ability of our team, our clients, to do their job effectively, and to help build the culture, and to have an impact on whether candidly, where the people go home today, the way they went to work today. So it places an emphasis on us to do really well, to provide them with the quality and the relevant tools to enable them to engage and protect their team. So it's a really fun, dynamic, challenging opportunity from a career perspective and a job perspective.

Jill James:

Thank you. I agree with that. So Chad, I know that you are a reader, because you're often passing articles my way to read and check out. Specific to the EHS profession, how do you work to keep educating yourself on the EHS profession?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Well, is this where I say the best place to go is to the Accidental Safety Pro Podcast?

Jill James:

Oh yeah. A product placement right here.

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that first off, but I do listen to your podcast. I think it's a great way, and I'm sure we'll probably talk about that. I think it's a great way to connect people, and so sincere in that. It's also great for me, someone who didn't grow up directly in the EHS, who became sort of accidentally into this space. It's a great way to see how other people got here and the challenges that they have on their mind, and things that they're dealing with. But I also listen, just kind of broadly speaking, one of my favorite podcasts that I listen to now is Prof G, professor Scott Galloway does. It's kind of a business focused, but it's also very topical with some of the things that go on in the economic markets, economic podcasts. Every day from a business perspective, I try to stay in touch by reading things like obviously parts of the Wall Street Journal or Morning Brew, which I have delivered to me, which I find it to be a pretty useful summary of certain things that are going on in the macro world that have a direct impact on us. And then, every once in a while when I have time, I try to read something for fun on the history side of the scale.

Jill James:

I love that. I love that. Do you want to talk about something that we recently started at HSI with our customer advisory board?

Chad Birckelbaw:

So we recently started and we just came off, and you were a big part of that, had our first official meeting in person. I guess we've had some probably set up meetings with a customer advisory board, where we brought together some of our customers, our clients to help us see things through their eyes, what are the challenges that they have, what are some of the opportunities they have from a growth perspective, and some of the tools that they need as they try to stay up to date, and ahead of the dynamic market that we're in. How do they get customer or employees engaged, those type of things. It was a really good solution, or a good opportunity, is a good opportunity for us from an organization perspective, to get that feedback from our customers and to see things through their eyes. I think we have a pretty good pulse on what the market needs and where it's going, but you can never fully appreciate it unless you're talking to the people who are in the trenches every day, and using your tools and the solutions that you've developed to solve real business problems that they have from an organization perspective. So we're excited to do that. Again, this was the first kickoff that we had in person. We'll do a series of meetings and we'll continue to grow that over time as we grow the organization. I think it's an important way for us to get feedback from our customer base.

Jill James:

Yeah. And I think our customer advisory board is made up of about a dozen EHS professionals, and they're from all over. And so, you just mentioned global, and so we have some customers and some EHS professionals that joined us from outside of the United States. And just listening to their challenges that are a little bit different, as we grow the organization in terms of regulatory bodies that we're learning about and helping them adapt, was also really interesting. And then, just listening to EHS professionals from literally around the world, their same challenges, then those things that are just a little bit different as well.

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, very true. The perspectives and the sharing, the collaboration, the sharing amongst the team members or the client members was really, really insightful, I think, for the HSI team to sort of see that how they were using our solution in the marketplace.

Jill James:

Yeah. So Chad, I mentioned this is the sixth anniversary of the podcast, and you said that you listened to episodes sometimes, and I know you do, because you comment on them once in a while. Six years into this, why choose to support this podcast for our company and for the EHS professionals who listen?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah. Well, I think number one, the work that you do here and the conversations that you have with professionals, either who are in the industry or Adjacent to the industry, I think it aligns with our mission of making the workplaces safer and smarter. So number one, there's absolute corporate alignment in terms of what we're trying to do from an organization perspective. The second thing is, I admire Peloton as a product, but I think the real asset as a company is the community that they've built. And I think this podcast, as I think about the viewership or the listenership I guess, and sort of the trends that I've seen over the years as this has continued to grow, I think this podcast does a really good job and it has that same vibe, like-minded professionals looking to strengthen and develop skills, and make connections. And that is rewarding. But I also think it's an important piece of what we're trying to do from an organization perspective. Again, aligning with our mission of making the workplaces safer and smarter. And the third thing, I think there's always, it's easier for me to talk in threes sometime. I think admittedly, you're really good at it. I think you do a great job at facilitating a discussion that allow people to have a voice, and to share their backgrounds and experiences, which I think is so incredibly powerful, given that many of our clients got here a non-traditional path. And to be able to sort of understand that, I think it probably gives people a sense of comfort and belonging, and hey, there's a community out there that supports them if I just pick up the phone, or reach out certain people in the industry to learn, and grow, and develop.

Jill James:

Thank you. Thank you for that, Chad. I appreciate it. I love collecting stories. This podcast is a passion project for me. I absolutely love to be able to honor and record the work of my profession, and it's just fascinating to hear everyone's stories. And of course, I have some of my favorites in the years that we've been doing this. And you're right, people do connect through the podcast. Sometimes I have people who will reach out to me on LinkedIn and say, "Hey, I listened to so-and-so's episodes, and I loved it so much." One person from Toronto told me that one of our guests was his de facto mentor, because he didn't have anyone else. So he just hung on to what one of our guests shared. And he said, "I'm putting into practice the things that particular person shared with me," which is awesome.

Chad Birckelbaw:

That's awesome.

Jill James:

Yeah. And over the weekend, I had someone reach out to me and say, "Hey, Jill, I heard you talk about this one thing once. Can you share that with me? I remember hearing about it, but can you share it with me?" And so, it is fulfilling to be able to connect the community in that way. I appreciate it. So as you know, I've spent April speaking at lots of conventions and webinars. I'm a little road weary, and there's more to come. We're not done yet. The common thread that I keep seeing at these speaking opportunities, at these conferences are the ways in which EHS professionals can align with their leaders. And so, that's kind of the age-old thing. How do you get by, and how do you get belief? How do you get budget with your leader if you're an EHS professional? And a couple of the things that I often share, and I'm curious to know if you think from your seat as a CEO, if I'm accurate or what you'd add to it, I'll stick with threes as well. I guess you and I think in threes. I often recommend that people ask their leader what sort of corporate risk is keeping them up? And I already heard you use that word early in the conversation when you're talking about risk and your background. I also encourage people to ask their leader what sort of data is meaningful to their leader, and ask their leader how they prefer to receive data. And I also heard you mention data a little bit ago. And then, the third thing that I recommend to people is that they educate their leaders on EHS objectives and key results for the quarter. Because so many times there aren't CEOs or leaders that really truly understand the work of EHS. And I think that we do a service to ourselves and them by explaining what those objectives and key results are. So I'm wondering, do any of those resonate with you? Am I way off? What else would you add?

Chad Birckelbaw:

I think those are really good, right? You got the risk component too, which I think is a big part of it. The one thing I would really add, and you said it, which was there's this, and I talked about it earlier, about the importance of communication and the ability to persuade people up in the organization, as well as down in the organization, but seeking input and buy-in from your leaders as to what's important to them, and to get clarity on ways that you as an EHS professional can positively impact us from an organization perspective, make us better. And I talk all the time about the importance of impacting business outcomes. And so, what do I mean by that? Why do I think it's important for EHS professionals, as well as anybody in most organizations to be able to speak to? Impacting business outcomes is about increasing revenue. How can we help revenue? How can decrease costs? How can we reduce risks? And those are the three. The fourth one is really about decreasing costs. It's about improving efficiencies. So if you can tell a story, and this goes back to one of the comments you made just a minute ago about your love and passion for storytelling. I think it's actually a lost art. You can put the quantitative data in front of people, and that's really, really important as you're sharing the rationale for investments that are being made. But to the degree, you can also wrap it with qualitative case studies or a story, inside of your business to help. It's such an important skill and to appeal to people who maybe hear things a little bit differently, or are influenced or persuaded by things a little bit differently than just numbers. So I think you're right. I think it's the revenue, cost, risk and efficiency. Being able to link that to a story and a message I think resonates. It's the same things that I think about being a buyer for maybe non-EHS software from time to time. It's the same thing that resonates with me when somebody brings a proposal, is how's it going to affect business outcomes? And then, talk to me a little bit about how this is going to make us better as an organization, and we sort of evaluate through that lens.

Jill James:

Yeah. So that was going to be my follow-up question, is how you make a decision when someone comes to you, especially for an investment in the organization. And what I believe I just heard you say, and let's share this with our listeners again, is, and if you haven't heard this, EHS fellow professionals, is really to think about when you're going to present something, when you're going to spin up a story to share with your CEO. And when I say spin up, I don't mean disingenuous, but really spin up a great story, is how our work impacts business outcome is what I heard Chad say, by explaining the increased revenue, decreased risk, decreased cost, and improve efficiencies. And so really, are those always, Chad, the four key things that you're looking for when any one of our colleagues comes to you and asks for an investment, or even to make a shift and a change within the business? So maybe it's not a spend they're asking for, it's something else. Are those the things that you're always looking for?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Those really are, Jill. And in fact, obviously you're on all of our all-hands meetings, and you've probably heard me echo those a few times. I think they're super important and it's an easy way to provide clarity to the things that we're doing, and the changes we're trying to make, or the processes that we're trying to improve, is to run it through those filters to determine the impact it has against one, two, or if you're lucky, all four of those. All three of those.

Jill James:

Yeah. Wonderful. I actually keep those four points on a note card on my desk. I mean, they're both simple and complicated, right? Yeah, it's both. But I think it's super important when we're doing our work, regardless of what it is, if we're trying to ask for, just buy-in on an initiative that we want to do. So Chad, you made a decision somehow to integrate me, a chief safety officer, a subject matter expert, like many of the people who are listening to this episode into the leadership team. Why was that important to the business?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah. And we referenced this earlier, some of the growth or the transformative growth and the rapid growth we've had as an organization. As I think about that, as you grow an organization, there are times, or there are periods or intervals where you can sometimes lose sight of the why behind all of the what's that need to get done to sustain the growth. And I think part of the role you play, and again, probably like when you were practicing day to day, you're wearing way too many hats, or you're wearing a lot of hats. But part of the role you're playing is to remind the organization and the client community that we talked about earlier of the why, why what we do, why what they do is important. And you're really kind of the voice. I think you're the voice of our customer in a lot of ways. So you work directly with a lot of other leaders in the organization. You're working closely with our sales team, and our ops team, and our product team thinking about where we need to go with the product. And I just think the reason we made the changes that we did, and the reason that you report directly to me is, I think direct access helps both of us be more effective as we think about the growth, and the strategy, and the customer's needs. One of our core values as an organization is customer focus. And I always say the customer's needs will determine our path. And I think you are a great conduit and have a good business mind too, to understand where we need to place our bets and where we're best able to position against some of the challenges that our customers may have.

Jill James:

Thank you for that. And we heard similar things with our customer advisory board. Some of the individuals on that board reported directly to their leadership team, to their CEO, and others did not. And it was interesting to hear, I guess the difference. It was a little bit harder for people who didn't have that direct line of sight to their leadership team to do those things that you were talking about, when people are asking for buy-in on something, or asking for budget on something, or asking for approval on an initiative. And that was pretty obvious in our customer advisory board as well.

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, certainly. And it seems, and I'd love to get your perspective on it, not that... You're the one asking the questions, but-

Jill James:

That's okay.

Chad Birckelbaw:

Kind of post-COVID, it does feel like, and we've talked about this before, the EHS professional has an elevated seat or seems to have an elevated seat, at least in many organizations. And making sure that we sustain that as we go forward, I think is an important task and a challenge for some organizations.

Jill James:

Yeah, it was one of the greatest gains for EHS professionals. If you think about, there was certainly a lot of loss in a pandemic, but one of the gains for our profession, twofold, in my opinion, has been having a seat at a leadership table, where many did not in the past. I always think about it like, hey, who's that person out in the back 40 there that we're going to bring up? Because they actually know something about this hazard that we're facing. And so, for the first time in many people's careers, they had a direct line of sight and a connection to their leadership team. And of course, the other benefit of the pandemic, if you will, was just people understanding a little bit more about the profession and the importance of it. No more does anyone ever have to try to explain what personal protective equipment is. I mean, just like that tiny example, people understand that. Or even things that only nerds like me know about the hierarchy of controls. People were learning about that just in communities, which was pretty nice and helpful to our profession. And so, I'd say those were definitely, definitely gains.

Chad Birckelbaw:

The impact on business outcomes was elevated, as it should have been probably a long time ago. And in many organizations, obviously it had been already.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things that I've been talking a lot about at our conferences that I've been speaking at as well, has been the importance of mentors. And specifically, encouraging people to have their own personal board of directors. Do you have such a thing? I mean, there's that saying it's lonely at the top, but do you have a mentor chat or a personal board of directors?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah, obviously I do. So obviously I have a formal board of directors as well. But I would say I have an informal group of people that I lean on, and it varies a little bit in terms of what I go to them for. So I have a person who is, I think one of the preeminent technologists, if you will, who I will bounce things off from a technology perspective, in terms of things that are new in the market or where things are going. I have another person who was steeped in sales and sort of go to market, and how to manage customer relationships, and occasionally I'll go pick his brain. But I also have kind of people leadership sounding boards that I'll go to. And sometimes it's not to get an answer. In fact, many times it's not to get an answer. Sometimes it's just to go vent and get a little perspective when I can't maybe vent to others, obviously inside the organization about some of the challenges, or things that we are facing from a company perspective. So I think it's really important. I'm a huge believer in the fact that self growth, personal development, continuous learning, there's a saying here in Texas that we talk about you're either green and growing or ripe and rotting. And I think that's a way to maintain curiosity and get feedback from folks about whatever topics that you maybe can't share with some others. So I think it's a really important thing to surround yourself with people. And not to just surround yourself, Jill, with people who agree with you, or tell you what you want to hear and make you feel better, but to really challenge your thought, but to do it in a psychologically safe way, so that you can again, kind of grow, develop. Because to me, it's just so critical, especially in today's world where the pace of change is probably unlike anything we've ever seen. And today is the slowest day it is ever going to be in terms of the pace of change. So just surround yourself with people who have that perspective and can give it to you straight, I think is really, really important for all of us.

Jill James:

Yeah, a hundred percent agree. And I've had different iterations of my personal board of directors in a 30-year career. You have different people come in and out, and in different points of your career, you need different sorts of ears. But I remember the first time I had a colleague who was in a different department in an organization, when I went to her with something I thought was really exciting and was a great idea, and she told me no. She said, "No, I don't think that's a good idea, and here's why." It stung, but she was so right. And I have reached back to her numbers of times in my career to thank her for that. And so, that I seek out people who will give me that honest feedback like you're talking about. And like you, I have professional EHS friends that are outside of our organization that are on my personal board of directors, and I have people in my local community. I have a friend that I walk with early in the mornings. She has a high stakes job as well, working for a county attorney. And we talk about things that we've been doing at work, and we play this little game like, okay, I have to tell you about something about work yesterday. Was I in the wrong here or could have I done a better job? And then we have that safe space to talk about it, and it's so important.

Chad Birckelbaw:

It's huge. And two things, right? You're talking about getting feedback and giving feedback. Getting feedback does sting sometimes when you get it, giving feedback is also difficult for some people. So when you find those trusted people in that safe space who can also give you feedback, feedback is a gift, as I always say, and it's a gift to get it, and it's important that you seek it out.

Jill James:

Yeah, agreed. A hundred percent. Chad, as we wrap up our time together today, what would you like to share with our listeners? Any final thoughts?

Chad Birckelbaw:

Yeah. Well, first off, thanks for listening if they've made it this long, so really appreciate that. Appreciate you and the things that you've done. And again, congratulations on your anniversary. I guess kind of keeping with a theme of three, really three things, and one of them I said earlier, from a client perspective or EHS professional perspective, what you do is very important. So be proud of the profession you've chosen. Don't be discouraged, and know that you are an important leader in the organization where you're situated. Number two, we just kind of talked about it. Stay curious. It's impossible to lead or influence others. Whether you're trying to persuade somebody up in the chain or down in the chain, it's impossible to do that if you aren't changing and growing yourself. We can never be done learning or improving. And I guess the third thing is, as a manager or leader, and they're two different things, but as a manager or a leader, you're always managing the three E's, what I call the three E's, of both you as well as others, right? So the three E's are you're managing your ego and somebody else's ego. You're managing your emotions and somebody else's emotions, and you're managing your expectation and somebody else's expectations. Those are three things I think that are important to keep in mind as you're persuading people to do the right thing, and to protect people, and serve people, which is the vocation that the folks listening to this podcast have likely chosen for themselves.

Jill James:

Well, that was gold, the three E's. Thank you. I haven't heard it said that way before. I appreciate that. And I'm not just saying that because you're my boss. Oh, man. Chad, thank you so much for your time today. Really, really appreciate this, and thank you for the support of the podcast. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May your employees and the leaders we influence and serve know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. Or if you prefer, read the episode and transcripts, and listen at hsi.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more EHS professionals. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer, and until next time, thanks for listening.