123: Salary and Safety Budgets with a City Safety Manager

Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro, brought to you by HSI. This episode is recorded December 19th, 2024. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer, and today our guest is Randy Milliron. Randy is Safety Manager for the city of Gillette, and Randy joins us today from Gillette, Wyoming. Welcome to the show, Randy.

Randy Milliron:

Oh, thanks for having me.

Jill James:

You're welcome. Hey, I think you might be my first "city of" EHS professional on the Accidental Safety Pro. So congratulations, I guess, on that. But more importantly, how does one become, or what was your path to work for a city? How did you get this started?

Randy Milliron:

So my story's kind of different. I absolutely love your podcast, because the first time I heard one of your episodes, I was like, "They are actually talking about my story." So I literally fell into safety. So in '94 I moved out to Wyoming to take a job. My father-in-law ran a small electrical mechanical repair shop, and he hired me to be a parts cleaner. So I did that for about a year, and I had done that when I was younger at my uncle's brake shop. So it was kind of old news, it was just the equipment got bigger.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

And so I did that for about a year. I truck drived, painted parts, hauled parts to the mines and stuff. And then one of our largest vendors, actually out of Milwaukee, wanted to do a contract with our company, but they wanted somebody that was in quality control. So we had a full machine weld shop, and they wanted somebody to make sure that our measuring instruments were calibrated to a set of standards. And I actually got called to the general manager's office, and the first thing he said to me was, "Randy, I know your future is not working on the shop floor." I laughed, was like, "Okay." And he goes, "I see you in the management side of the world." And I was like, "Okay, that sounds really exciting." He said, "Well, here's the thing. We have this company that wants us to create a quality control coordinator position, and we think you're perfect for the job." And I'd worked there for less than a year. I'm like, "How do you know I'm perfect for the job?" And he actually told me, he said, "Well, because you're cheap and you're good with a computer."

Jill James:

So that's like a notch up than saying, "You have a pulse and we have a position."

Randy Milliron:

Yeah.

Jill James:

So that was good.

Randy Milliron:

So I felt like one rung up on the ladder. So I did that for about a year, and after a year, the general manager called me to his office again and he said, "Hey, I don't know if you know this, but the safety coordinator's turned in her two weeks, and I was wondering if you might be interested in taking on that job. Obviously you would spend 80% of your time in the quality control lab and 20% you'd be doing safety inspections and reports and stuff." And I remember like it was just yesterday, but I asked him only one question. And I said, "Well, does it come with a raise?"

Jill James:

And?

Randy Milliron:

And he said yes. He goes, "Yeah, we'll give you a raise." And I think I decided at that moment that, okay, early in my career, money was a big driver. So I asked if I could have some time to talk it over with my girlfriend at the time, now wife. And I knew right then that's what I wanted to do. So after about six months of being in the safety office and never stepping foot in the quality control lab, I realized quickly that I may have bit off more than I could chew.

Jill James:

Yeah, I was just going to say, that 80/20 thing was like ...

Randy Milliron:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Hm, that was a general manager who didn't quite understand safety.

Randy Milliron:

No, "You guys just do reports and do inspections, you'll be fine."

Jill James:

Right. Oh my gosh. Okay. So you bit off more than you can chew, and you had to teach yourself how to do this job. So how did you do that?

Randy Milliron:

I was very fortunate actually, because our organization had partnered with our state run OSHA program, I want to say a year before. So we were enrolled in our state program called EVTAP, so employee volunteer technical assistance program.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm.

Randy Milliron:

And so what that meant is, every year we had three inspectors would come to our site, go through our programs, do inspections of our shop, and basically give us citations that we had to fix. And I really credit my journey to those three individuals, our technical assistant advisors, because every year the OSHA group would actually host these three-day, they were called collateral duty classes.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm.

Randy Milliron:

And they were free. So you went for three days and you were immersed in the regulations. And I went to the first one with the general manager and I, and I just was blown away by how many regulations applied to our organization. And I loved the teaching aspect of that class. So I think I attended three of those over the course of like two years. And I think it was the second or third one, you travel to these places across Wyoming, and instead of eating alone, the inspectors would, "Hey, do you want to come have dinner with us? Of course we can't pay for yours and you can't pay for ours."

Jill James:

Right, right.

Randy Milliron:

But that was the start of this wonderful friendship that I created with those inspectors. And I looked at inspectors, I carried that same philosophy through my whole career, which is, both of us have a job to do. And they really wanted to take me under their wing, "Hey, have you ever thought about being an OSHA inspector? You're not going to be rich in this job, but the retirement." And I was starting a new family.

Jill James:

You learn a lot, yeah.

Randy Milliron:

I was starting a new family and I just couldn't see it. Plus, it was a pretty big pay cut, even only having a couple years in safety.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

So I cherish that relationship that I had with them, and really I worked with those three individuals, those three inspectors, for the nine years that I spent at that company. So we actually graduated from EVTAP, and then we went into the federal program SHARP, and we were at that level until I left in 2006.

Jill James:

That's fantastic. And remind me again, what was that industry you were working in?

Randy Milliron:

I just call it general industry.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Randy Milliron:

We were a small repair facility that serviced the oil field and the coal mines.

Jill James:

Yeah. Got it. Got it. Okay. All right, so then what happened next, and what made you switch?

Randy Milliron:

Well, it was interesting because the general manager, again, he was a really close personal friend of mine.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

And he had called me to his office, and I think it was around performance evaluation time. And he sat me down and he said, "Randy, I'm going to give you some hard truth." And he said, "But you will never make the salary that you deserve working here." He said, "They are literally going to 3.5% you cost of living raises for your career. So unless you go get a degree, that's about the only way you're going to see a real big pay hike." And so I was feeling kind of dejected, like, "Oh gosh, I chose this career and now I've hit the ceiling already. Gosh, I've only been in it for nine years." And I said, "Well, gosh, what is my next step?" And he said, "Well, you really need to go to the coal mines." And of course my first indication was, well, I don't want to operate equipment. I don't see that in my future. Because I knew they do make quite a bit of money, but he said, "No, in safety." And I said, "Well, the issue with safety in the Powder River Basin with the 10 or 12 mines that we have here, it sounds kind of callous when I say this, but somebody needs to either die or retire before those positions become available."

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

And so I remember, it was in the summer of 2006, a position had come open for an analyst position at a local mine, and I put in for it. I remember we delayed our vacation so I could do the interview. Did the interview, thought the interview went really, really well, and then went on vacation. Never heard anything back from that company. And it was about two months later that I remember I saw one of the emails from the safety manager for that coal mine, and I felt kind of, I guess, dejected. So I was feeling kind of confident, not cocky. So I wrote back, I just basically replied to his email and asked, "Hey, did you guys ever find a person for this position?" And he instantly replied and said, "No, we didn't. Are you still interested?" And I said, "Yeah, of course I'm interested." So he said, "Can I give you a call?" And he called me and he said, "Do you have a degree?" And I said, "No, I don't have a degree." And he said, "Well, Peabody Energy is really, really interested in having people that have degrees moving into safety positions." I said, "No, I don't, but I can get one if that's what I need to do." And he said, "No." He goes, "Let me talk to corporate." And corporate allowed me to come in at the analyst position and not a supervisor position. So in the fall of 2006 I started my 10-year career working in the surface coal mines for three different coal mines over that 10 years.

Jill James:

Wow. Wow. And Randy, what did you do with your education, since that seemed to be a key driver?

Randy Milliron:

Well, it was interesting, because when I talked to ...You go to your performance evaluation, and still, I was really driven by the bottom dollar at that time and wanting to find out what I need to do to make more money. And he said, "Well, in order to get the safety supervisor position, you either need to do one of two things. You either need to get certified, so safety certification of some sorts, or you need to get a degree." And at that time, even if it was a degree, even an AA.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm.

Randy Milliron:

So Peabody offered a great tuition reimbursement program. So I want to say it was 2010 I jumped on that wagon, and I did both. I actually got my certified mine safety professional at the same time I was going to night school to get my AAS in mining technology. And so in 2012 I was able to achieve both of those requirements that allowed me to move into the supervisor position.

Jill James:

Congratulations.

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, it was pretty exciting. The crazy part about finding out is, we were on a bus heading to Elko, Nevada for one of our mine rescue competitions. Everybody on the bus is asleep, because we have to leave Gillette at like 4:00 in the morning.

Jill James:

Uh-huh.

Randy Milliron:

And I remember my wife texted me and asked me if she could call me, and I was thinking, "Oh my gosh, what's going on?"

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

And she said, "No, I have your letter here," on my safety certification. And so of course I called her. And I'm alone, literally everyone on the bus is asleep. And she tells me, "Do you want me to open it?" And I'm like, "Well, heck yes. Open that thing up." And so she opened it and she starts crying and says, "Well, congratulations. You've earned your certification." And I had no one to celebrate with for like two hours. But no, it was really exciting and a very important point in my life and obviously in my career.

Jill James:

Oh, that's wonderful. Hey, and I heard you say you were on your way to a mine rescue competition. What happens at one of those?

Randy Milliron:

Oh, gosh. So that was probably one of my most favorite memories of working at the mines. I was able to lead or co-facilitate our mine rescue teams at the three mines I worked for. And what it really looks like is, mine rescue, when I worked at Caballo, for instance, you have 12 months of training. So every month you're getting eight hours of training, whether it's fire, medical, rope rescue, those kinds of things. Well, a competition is three days of practical skills stations and scenario-based stations. And I remember my first year, so I started in 2006, and I really introduced myself to the team. I only had a couple months to get to know the team before the new year started. And I remember talking to some of the captains and co-captains, and I had been around mine rescue competitions before, because in Gillette we actually hosted the International Surface Mine Rescue Competition. And so I got with the captains and we were building the perfect team. So it's an eight-person team, seven team members and one alternate. And I remember taking that list to my safety manager at Caballo and handed him the list and I said, "Hey, man, this is the team that really the captains and I really think is going to do really well at the competition." And he hands the list back to me. He goes, "No, it's not, that list isn't going to be good enough." And so I was kind of dejected and I said, "What's wrong with the list?" He goes, "Your name's not on it." I was like, "Wait, wait, wait. Hey, I haven't even had my basic emergency care training, 48-hour training, and you want to throw me on the competition team?" And he said, "No better way to learn than trial by fire." And so that started my very first competition season. So if a normal rescuer gets 12 months of training, a competition team member gets 14 additional training days where we prepare for a competition. So going through all the practical textbooks, learning knots, learning different patient assessment techniques, And then literally the trainer is taking us through mine related scenarios during those 14 additional training days. And then a competition, the first day is what we call fun day, which is, they intermingle a bunch of team members. So you have, let's say all the ones, so you're numbered one through seven, so all the ones, you're going to go in this group and you're going to be a team, and all the twos. And so that's kind of fun. You do a lot of fun little stations, like trying to catch water balloons with bunker gear. It's just catching eggs at a distance. Well, then that's really to get you over the nerves, because the very next day you have like four hours of practical stations that you go through as a team. And so I was really excited, but obviously very, very nervous, because I felt I was the weakest link on the team. I didn't have much experience. And then the last day is you are, all 14 teams are held in lockup, and you get called out based on how you scored the first day. So if you're the last place team, you go out first. And so first meaning you're in lockup at 5:00 in the morning, so you may hit the training ground at 7:00 when they usually start. So you're in lockup for a couple hours, and just nerves and anxiety. And then you go through your final 30-minute mine rescue scenario with your team, and then after all the scores are tabulated, then of course we have an awards banquet. And I was very excited to say that my very first year, in Elko they have A flight and B flight. So the top seven teams go to A flight and the bottom seven go to B flight. And so we actually ended up taking third in B flight, and it was the first time that Caballo had ever won a trophy in, gosh, I want to say five years.

Jill James:

That's awesome.

Randy Milliron:

So it was exciting to be a part of that team.

Jill James:

Oh, that's awesome. I had no idea those sort of things happened. That's exciting. I worked for the Department of Transportation when I was first, first, first starting out in safety, and they had snowplow rodeos in Minnesota at the beginning of every season, similar to what you're talking about, the real critical work to make sure that people are going to stay safe. That's wonderful. That's a fun story. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing that.

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, good times.

Jill James:

Yeah. So what happened after mining? Did you stay in mining, or what was your next stop?

Randy Milliron:

So I was actually in mining, so I spent about seven years at Caballo, and then I was force transferred to our sister mine, which was about an hour and 15 minutes away from Gillette. And I worked down there for about 14 months. And then a really good friend of mine who worked at, she was the safety manager of two of the coal mines that were really close to Gillette, I had heard through the grapevine that ... I was actually doing annual refresher training for Peabody, and one of the people in the class, we were at break or something, and he said, "Hey, did you hear that so-and-so left the Alpha mine and went to work at the power plant?" And I said, "No, no, I didn't." I didn't really think anything why this person was telling me this. And so I remember I was on break, we were all on break eating lunch and stuff. And then it dawned on me, I said, "Wait, if she went from the Alpha mine to the power plant, that means there might be a position open at Alpha." So I ended up texting my friend and said, "Hey, I was wondering, I heard through the grapevine that you might be looking for a safety supervisor." And she texted me back almost immediately, "Yes, I am. Are you interested?" I said, "Yeah, let's talk." So I ended up putting in for that mine, and then I worked there for almost two years. And then a really good friend of mine had reached out to me and asked if I was putting in for the job of safety manager for the city of Gillette. And instantly I texted him back and said, "Like what, like a snowplow operator, a wastewater?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?"

Jill James:

You sort of have this theme, Randy, where you think whenever someone taps you on the shoulder, that it's taking you into a labor job, when your first mentor told you that, "Oh no, you're a leader."

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, "That's not meant for you." So he said, "No, there's a safety manager position open." And so I challenged him and said, "Okay, well, give me all the information, the requirements, and pay scale, and all the benefits package." So he sent that to me and I reviewed it and reviewed it with my wife, and we were talking about it, and the salary range was somewhat similar to what I was making at the coal mines. And so I remember texting my friend and saying, "I really am interested in putting in for this position." And he said, "Well, okay, then I'm not going to put in for it." And I said, "Why are you not going to put in for it?" He goes, "Because the last two jobs that we have both put in for, you actually got the job and I did not." So I told him, I said, "No, hey, you need to keep your interview skills up and you really need to try this." And so they ended up interviewing, I think, 10 people for the job. And I had been on the recruiting team for Peabody Energy for the eight years that I worked there. So we would go to the South Dakota School of Mines to interview interns to hire them for the summer to work in our mines. And so I knew a lot about group interviews and intimidation through interviews. And so when I came for my interview at the city, they have you sit at this little round table, fill out some paperwork, and then the door opens and they're, "Oh, Randy, we're ready for you." All these people. I walked back there, and there was 12 people around this table.

Jill James:

Oh, shoot, yeah.

Randy Milliron:

And so instantly I realized, "Oh wait, they're trying to intimidate me. I don't intimidate very easily, so let's go." So I remember the interview, it was so exciting because I'd never thought about working for the government. A long time ago thinking about working for OSHA, but this is city government, so I didn't have a lot of working knowledge. So I asked a lot of questions during the interview, obviously they asked me a lot of questions. And then it comes to that end of the interview, Jill, where they say, "Well, Randy, do you have any questions for us?" And knowing the game, I opened up my portfolio and I had probably 20 questions that I had already pre-written out. And so I went over the list and I started asking some of the questions, but one of the ones that I asked, I asked directly of the HR director. And I really like to use, not really manipulate, but I like to play on words. So I said to him, I said, "So when I get the job, you're going to be my boss, correct?" And he says, he goes, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll be your boss." I'm like, "Oh, I already got this. All right, cool. Interview over." But no, I asked him, I said, "Okay." So I go, looking back on, so I was interviewing at the end of 2015, and so I said, "Can you tell me in the last year how many incidents the city has had?" And he sheepishly looked at the HR specialist sitting next to him and he's like, "I really have no idea." I'm like, "Oh, okay." So I wrote that down on my list and then I looked at the HR specialist and I said, "Hey, so you're in charge of workers' comp, correct?" And she said, "Yes, I am." And I said, "Well, can you tell me how many active open cases you're working right now?" And she looks at the HR director and shrugs her shoulders and says, "Maybe 10." I'm like, "Okay, sounds good." And I write that down and I go through my questions and I close my portfolio, and that's all the questions I have. And so the HR director asked me, he goes, "Well, I have a follow-up question." And he said, "About the question that you asked both of us, why were you interested in knowing how many incidents or workers' comp cases that we have open?" And I said, "Well, I'm the safety supervisor for two mines. One mine has 450 employees, the other mine has 380. I have 40 members on my rescue team at one mine, and I have 30 on the other." I said, "I could tell you, based on each mine, how many MSHA inspection days they've had. I could tell you which crew has gone the longest without a lost time accident or even a preventable incident. I could tell you how many active open cases I have through workers' comp at both mines because it's my job." And he goes, "Oh, that's good. That's a good answer." So I got done with the interview, Jill, and I had to tell myself when I exited City Hall to walk to my vehicle, because I was so excited. I had never felt this passion in my life, that I had never wanted a job more in my life. So I walked slowly to my truck. I got in the truck and literally drove a block away, parked and called my wife, and said, "We have to pray about this. I've never wanted a job more in my life." And she said, "Why is that?" I go, "Because they don't know what they don't know. There's so much low-hanging fruit where I can make an instant impact." So that was really how I got started with the city.

Jill James:

That's awesome. That's awesome. And how long have you been there?

Randy Milliron:

In January it'll be my ninth year.

Jill James:

Wonderful. Oh my gosh, that's so fun. Hey, so since you are first "city of," do you mind if I ask a couple of questions about local government?

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, go ahead.

Jill James:

When you were in that interview and you were asking a lot of questions, one of the things that I know that's different in working in government, local, state, or federal, is that budgeting is done differently. And just the way that it's fund accounting versus cost accounting. What has that been like for you when you need to ask for an investment? How does that work?

Randy Milliron:

Oh, Jill, I'm glad you asked that question, because it is probably one of the strangest things I've ever had to experience in my career. At the coal mines, I remember my boss would come to me at the end of the year and he said, "Hey, just tell you what, I'm just going to add 10% to your budget for next year." And I would say, "Okay, sounds great." Because we really were never capped by a budget. I had never been called to my boss's office to tell me that I went over budget, because the budgets we had there were just so huge. If you wanted to create a project, there was money available. Well, when I came to the city, I remember, so I started in January, like I told you, and then in February I get this calendar invite to the HR director's, to his office, and the title is budget review. I'm like, "Oh, okay. This is cool. All right." So I go to this meeting. I remember asking the HR director at the time, I said, "So is there anything I need to prepare for this meeting?" He said, "No, it's pretty much just a formality, but I want to review your budget with you." I'm like, "Okay. Sounds good." At the time, in 2016, in our area we were actually going through a budget recession. So I had actually started probably not the best time. I remember sitting down with the HR director and he said, and he slides this packet of paper across the table and he goes, "Here's your budget. Do you have any questions?" And I was like, "I haven't even looked at this." I'm like, "What?" So I'm quickly fanning through these 11 pages and realized that 80% of my budget was my salary.

Jill James:

Oh, yeah.

Randy Milliron:

And the 20% was rather small. And there was a huge account called employee recognition. And when I saw the dollar signs in it, I'm like, I was thinking of, "Oh, these are great things that I can do." And he literally reaches across the table and he said, "Yeah, we're going to go ahead and zero that out." He goes, "I don't know if you realize this, but as a community and our state, we're kind of in a budget recession, so we're looking to try to cut costs. So pretend this isn't there." Well, when you see that large number and you're already thinking about, it's like Christmas in January, "Hey, there's great things I can do." And so I started thumbing through the rest of the budget, and I realized my budget comprised of, yes, my salary. It also included annual fire extinguisher inspection, AED servicing, batteries, replacement pads, and audiograms. And then they had this miscellaneous, they called it safety supplies, which was not a very large number at all. And I didn't know what I didn't know about budgets in the city. And I was like, "Oh, okay." Thinking that if something comes around down the line, I could just go to my boss and ask for more money.

Jill James:

Yeah, right.

Randy Milliron:

Not realizing that's not how it works in government. Whatever's in the budget, you have to stay inside those parameters.

Jill James:

Yeah, and I always think about that fund accounting like buckets.

Randy Milliron:

Oh, yeah.

Jill James:

So maybe five buckets of money, but you can't pour the money from one bucket to another bucket when you need help because it's not allowed. So when your bucket's dry, it's dry.

Randy Milliron:

He told me right up front, he said, okay, he showed me the bottom line.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

So it showed a 25% reduction in my overall budget, 25% or 35%.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

He said, "Okay, this new number for this next fiscal year, starting July 1 of 2016, this is the number you cannot go over. You can't even get close to this number." And I was just like, "Oh my gosh." Knowing that, like I said, 70% to 80% of that number was my salary. I'm like, "Oh, this is not going to be fun." So it was interesting because in new hire training, when I would get to the point of telling what the safety person does at the city, and we got to this line item that I had on a presentation that said about financial support. And so I laughed every time I'd come to that line, because I usually just pass over it because they really don't know what I'm talking about. But what I say is, when I worked at the coal mines, basically if we wanted something done, I always thought of the safety division as a savings account. So pay me up front in tools and PPE and equipment and programs and training, or you can pay me on the backside in equipment damage or workers' comp medical expenses. So I always thought of the safety division as a savings account. And what we would say is, every dollar that you don't spend in either equipment damage or medical expenses, in general industry that's called profit. That's money you don't have to spend. So if you're doing the right proactive things up front, you actually are a direct contributor to the profit line. Well, at the city, it's not for profit. So what I basically have to say is, any dollar that isn't spent in equipment damage or medical expenses, that's money the city can spend elsewhere. It's just a huge different thing. And talking about budgets, it's like my least favorite, there's two seasons that I have, well, maybe three seasons that I have at the city, and one is our summer seasonal season, where we have these seasonals that we hire, and they usually have incidents, and they were the largest incident division, I would say, before I started here at the city. The second one would be winter season, because as you know living in Minnesota, our winter can start as early as September and go as late as May.

Jill James:

Sure.

Randy Milliron:

So you're under for up to six months. But my least favorite season is budget. It starts in January, and you have all these mini meetings really going over your budget, because the weird thing, which is a little shocking as well, so you have your initial meeting with your HR director, then you have your next meeting is with the HR director and the city administrator and the finance director, and they go over your budget. And so if there's something that you really want to do in next fiscal year, you get it in the budget. And that's where this, it's almost like a game. You ask for more than you really need, because you know they're going to cut.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

So you go through that session, and then the very next session is, you present that budget to city council and the mayor.

Jill James:

Yeah. And so have you done that, or is it the administrator doing that?

Randy Milliron:

No, no. What happens is the administrator calls up the director, and the director has a safety manager come up and present his budget to the council.

Jill James:

Makes sense. Yeah, the expert. That's good.

Randy Milliron:

And so I would sit at the table with the HR director and he would go through our budget, but then he would always defer to me if there was a question from either a city council member or the mayor. So it was very stressful. And then even after that meeting, you don't know what your budget is going to be until July 1st. So July 1st, the budget comes out and you get to quickly look and go, "Oh, that got cut," or, "Oh, that funding got cut," or, "That travel budget got cut. Oh, man. All right, well, this is what I've got to work with." So that's really how the budget system works.

Jill James:

Yeah, this is really good, Randy, for anyone listening who's thinking about working in government. These are good eyes wide open things to know. It's not that you can't do the job, it's just done differently than it's done in the private sector.

Randy Milliron:

Well, and it's interesting because I talk about the pay scale and the benefits. So what I didn't realize before joining the city is, so let's say your salary range is A to B. So you have your floor and your ceiling, and they have this thing that they love to use, it's called midpoint. So they typically do not hire anyone above midpoint. So I came to the city with what, 14, 15 years in safety. And that didn't really matter when it came to salary negotiation. When the HR director called and offered me the job and he told me the salary range, I literally had to take a breath. And he said, "Is there something wrong with the salary?" And I said, "Well, it's considerably lower than I am currently making now, and I really need to discuss this with my wife. And can you give me some time to talk about it with my wife?" And he said, "Yeah, no problem. We'll give you until, this is great, we'll give you until Friday end of day." I think it was Tuesday. So I asked him, I go, "So how flexible are you in that starting salary?" And he goes, "Well, we have some wiggle room." And I'm like, "Okay." Went home, talked to the wife, and she's our accountant. And so it was originally going to be a $30,000 pay cut.

Jill James:

Ooh.

Randy Milliron:

And so that was going to be kind of hard. And so basically my wife and I negotiated that, hey, if we went to only $20,000, that's manageable. We can probably make that work. And what really decided, really made me decide to go with that number was, in my first year of working for the city, and this is where they blow you away with benefits, is they were going to contribute $13,000 to my retirement and I wasn't going to pay a dime.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

They cover not only the employer's, but they cover the employee's expense. So I'm talking to my wife and I go, "Really we're haggling over $7,000." I'm like, "$7,000 to try something new in an area of safety I've never worked before that I'm super excited about, let's do it." So I remember calling him back. I waited, I just wanted to wait him out. So 4:45 I think was the latest I could do on Friday. And I called him, and obviously he answered on the first ring, and I told him who I was, and he said, "Yeah, Randy, what can I do for you?" So I said, "Hey, I was wondering if you would be interested in paying me this salary." And he said, "Yep, no problem." I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I went too low." Like, "Oh, he answered yes too fast. So there was probably wiggle room." And that's the thing that a lot of people probably don't understand in working for government and especially city municipality, is they are not going to pay you the salary that you think or you might be able to get in a different industry, but they blow you away with benefits. We have this thing at the city, it's called total compensation. So it's not just factoring your salary, but all the benefits you get with it. And every time you look at that number, you're like, "Oh, I am totally happy where I am." And that's the thing that I really realized, Jill, in moving to this position. I had literally left the old person behind that was chasing after that dollar. I just wanted to be in a place where I'm happy, I could do what I want to do, and I still have passion about my job, and that's what I have here at the city.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. I think the things that you've been talking about, Randy, are so helpful to people who are listening. You may not know that you've been dropping information about how to ask for money and how to ask for a raise. And it's a question that people ask me often. How do you do it? What did you say? And you've been giving those kind of tips, so I really appreciate that. Yeah, so I'm wonder-

Randy Milliron:

It's always good to go higher than you expect, because they can always knock it down.

Jill James:

And to ask. And to ask.

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, definitely.

Jill James:

I know that you want to talk about leadership, and I'm wondering if we can start talking about that, because I know that's one of your passions. And I don't know if the place to start is talking about the fact that you had identified yourself as a safety introvert.

Randy Milliron:

Oh, yeah.

Jill James:

Is that the place to start talking about leadership?

Randy Milliron:

That might be a good segue. So back in my early days when I got promoted into the safety position, so I worked for a, this is going to sound funny, a high-performing dysfunctional team. So the business I worked at, we had five locations, five shops in the western United States, and ours was always the most profitable. We blew every other shop out of the water when it came to profit.

Jill James:

Yeah, wow.

Randy Milliron:

But the issue was, we couldn't get along. So our general manager had recognized that something needed to be done, so they hired a trainer from Zoe Training to come in and literally teach us how to be a better team. And so I really got bit by the leadership bug early on. A lot of the concepts that our trainer would teach us, I was jumping out of my skin going, "We've needed this for months. Oh my gosh, this is so good." And so in those nine years that I spent under that Zoe trainer, initially he came I think once a month for six months, and then he branched out to coming up every once a quarter. But he would always have some new leadership concept. And it was at the same time that I attended a John C. Maxwell simulcast. And I literally had found my mentor for life. I would never get the chance to meet this man. Maybe I will, it's on my bucket list. But I really liked leadership development, and I really saw what an impact it made on our team. So we had a team of 15 that were in management, that by the time we got through the training, you were physically able to call someone out about something that they were doing that you learned in training and the person wouldn't take offense to it. Of course, "Oh my gosh, you're coming at me like a child, and you're trying to get me to go to child and I'm going to stay adult." And so the communication was just, it was so amazing.

Jill James:

And that was through the Maxwell training?

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, so through the Maxwell training and our Zoe quarterly training. And then when I transitioned to the mine, I remember when the safety manager had told me, so I'm starting in October, and he said, "Oh, by the way, one thing that wasn't really on the job requirements or your job skills is, you actually have to run the mine rescue team." And at that time I was maybe certified first aid through either American Heart or National Safety Council. I can't remember, maybe it was Medic First Aid.

Jill James:

That's an HSI company. Thanks for that name drop.

Randy Milliron:

Good plug. So that's the only experience I had. And I had participated and volunteered at our local mine rescue competitions for the previous three years. Matter of fact, the year leading up to that, we held the final day on property that we owned. And so I got to actually experience all the anxiety and all the stress and stuff. So instantly I'm a little panicky. So really being an introvert in safety, I used to call myself the safety wallflower. So I would attend conferences and just go to my sessions and then go to the expo and maybe talk to some people and just go to my room. I just didn't think that I had anything really to offer. So when I went the mines, now I'm going to have to lead this team? So I said, okay, coming out of the nine years of leadership development that I had, I told the safety manager, "I really need to observe what I'm walking into." And he said, "Well, that's great." He said, "The first training is this Thursday. Why don't we start there? You can observe the training. Your co-trainer will introduce you to the team, and you'll have three months to see how everything works, and then you can come up with a plan." So I was basically going in as a consultant. So in my very first training, I will never forget it, we started off and there were donuts or muffins or something, and a lot of hunting stories and typical guys and gals stuff here in Wyoming. And I remember we started the training and the trainer goes, the crew trainer opened up the medical book and said, "Okay, so today we're going to talk about fractures and dislocations. And he starts to read the book."

Jill James:

Oh.

Randy Milliron:

I'm in the back wanting to come out of my skin. And I looked at Carl, my co-trainer said, "Please tell me this isn't the normal thing that we do." He goes, "Oh yeah, we always start off with medical the first hour." I'm like, "Whoa. Okay." So I observed for the first two months. So I observed in October and November. We usually took December off, and I called a meeting with the captains and co-captains from all four crews. And I had already started working on a plan, and my plan was to create this leadership development team and teach them the soft skills that they need to be a better leader of their crew. And I pitched this, literally I pitched this to our mine rescue captains, co-captains. Now, you have to understand, some of these guys have been coal mining for 15 to 20 years. So I literally had to teach them how to speak managese. So when they're talking to a manager, you need to talk and use the buzzwords that pique the interest of managers in our organization. So I taught them return on investment, just little cliche buzzwords. But I really told them, instead of going up and asking for, "Hey, we need this amount of money to increase our training and make our training better," we need to show them the reasons why we need that money before we ever ask for the money. I said, "Because once we have the meeting before the meeting, we're going to be so prepared before we sit down with those mine managers that by the end of the day, they're going to be shaking our hands and thanking us for doing this." And so the whole month of December, I think we had a couple meetings that December, and literally preparing them for this meeting we were having with the mine manager, production manager, maintenance manager, and the safety manager and the HR manager. Some of these people had not had a haircut in months, shaved their beards. They cleaned up well. And we presented this, and I was actually the person that started it. But I really defaulted to the team any time there was a question about the plan. I wanted them to know the plan, my plan, like the back of their hands so they could talk about it. So I didn't want to have a meeting where Randy talked for an hour. I wanted to do an intro of 10, 15 minutes and let the eight captains and co-captains sell the plan.

Jill James:

Awesome.

Randy Milliron:

And by the end of it, everybody was on board. They were so excited about where the rescue team was going in that next year. And we walked out of the meeting, and I remember, just walking to my truck when I got the interview at the city, I told them, "Let's walk over to my trailer. Let's just walk over there." And then we got the trailer and we got to celebrate. So they were like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe they bought into that. That was so awesome."

Jill James:

Oh, that's so fun.

Randy Milliron:

I saw something in them. Well, actually I should say I saw something in myself, that I had the skill set and the knowledge to give them the soft skills that made those conversations so much easier, either with their crew members or if they are talking to a high level manager at the mine, they don't have to feel inferior because they will have the soft skills in how to actively listen and carry on a conversation and get their point across, and not get into an argument or disagreement. So I did that for all the seven or eight years that I worked for Caballo. And the interesting thing about it was, management picked up on the fact that what we were doing, because they ended up promoting a lot of our captains and co-captains into supervisor positions. So they were using our rescue team as a talent pool for their future supervisors. And that just made me glow, because it meant what we were doing was what really the mine needed.

Jill James:

That's a great legacy. When you're working with people and you were working with those individuals and the people you're working with now, what do you think some of those attributes are that makes a good leader or manager?

Randy Milliron:

Oh gosh, Jill, that's a great question. I have to start off with active listening. If you have a conversation with someone, and it was told to me or I learned this a long time ago, and I was highly guilty of these two things, finishing other people's statements and listening to reply instead of actively listening.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm.

Randy Milliron:

So I remember early in my career, my general manager, we were having a conversation about a gas monitor I was wanting to buy or something, and he gave me a phrase that I still use this day. He said, "Randy, I'm going to teach you a concept." He said, "When you bring something to me, you need to ask me, do I want you to tell me what time it is or how to build the watch?" And I was kind of looking at him like, "What?" He goes, "If I tell you I want to know what time it is, tell me how much the gas monitor is. I'll tell you yes or no." He said, "But if I tell you, 'Hey, yeah, you can tell me how to build the watch,'" then he's allowing me to take up more of his time to explain why we need this new gas monitor. It completely changed my career path. Because those conversations you have, instead of just filling the air with extra words, just get to the point. Some people just want to hear, "Okay, what's the point?"

Jill James:

You lead with the headline, or you lead with the ask. Yeah, that's something that I was taught, I don't know, maybe midpoint in my career. Same sort of thing, where you feel like you need to use all of the justification to explain the why, because you yourself would want to know that, right? But the person making the decision might not operate that way. So lead with the thing that you want. If it's an email or a statement or conversation or whatever, "I'm coming here because we need to buy a gas monitor." That's a full sentence, right? And then if they say, "Why do we need a gas monitor?" Oh, well, then you get to tell them a little bit more, because the next question might be, "Yeah, how much is that?" And then you say whatever it is. And they're like, "Yeah, okay." Or it could be, "Why do we need that?"

Randy Milliron:

Exactly.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Well, that's good. That was a good thing. What else were you going to say about attributes?

Randy Milliron:

So obviously the active listening is very important. Listen to reply, or not listen to respond. You're waiting for them to stop talking so you can interject your thought. "Well, here's what I think." I had one of my people on my team that used to always say, "Well, you know what I think you should do?" And just instantly, they were not listening to anything that I was talking about. But really actively caring. So the thing that I have probably grown in my experience is, having empathy is not a bad thing. So there's one thing that, you obviously have sympathy if you've never gone through that situation, but empathy, really putting yourself in their shoes. And when somebody comes to you with a problem, disengaging from whatever you're doing and really turning away from whatever you're working on to engage with that employer, that supervisor. Here in my office, I have a little round table that any time somebody comes in and they stay out of the door jam, they actually enter the office, I just move to the table. Because a couple different things. One, it keeps us on the same level. If I'm behind my desk and they're standing talking to me, then I have, I would say, a sense of authority or presence of authority. But if I go over and sit at the table with them, then we're equal. And it allows the conversation to flourish a lot more than if I'm just quickly trying to get to their problem. So that's one of the things that I really like to do. Any time I am talking with the employees, I'm not on my agenda, I'm on their agenda. So I'm here, I get paid by the hour. I'm a salary employee. But you know what, I'm here for them. And that's the one thing that I learned over my career, is really having those conversations with the employees, whether it's talking about the football games or what have you, it's just getting on their page rather than ... Even if I have a question that I brought to them, sometimes I might not even ask the question based on how the conversation goes.

Jill James:

Yeah, right. And as I'm looking, I'm checking the time right now.

Randy Milliron:

Oh, no worries.

Jill James:

I want to make sure that, you talk about the fact that you're continuing to teach yourself these leadership skills. I believe you told me you recently were at a leadership retreat. So this is something that's important to you and you keep wanting to develop your skill?

Randy Milliron:

Oh, yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah. Talk about how you continue to develop yourself.

Randy Milliron:

The previous HR director, I went to him, I probably worked here two years, and I developed a, really quickly, I was going through incident reports and I had this little Post-it note tablet that was next to my desk. And so every time I would get an incident report that had something that I wanted to correct, I would add it to the list. Then I went to the HR director once the list was full and said, "Hey, give me 90 minutes with all of our managers and supervisors so I can clear all this up. I want to get everybody on the same page." So he agreed to that, and we were able to train almost 90% of our supervisors and managers in those few 90-minute sessions that I had. And interesting, I was towards the end of one of the sessions, and I remember one of our PD sergeants came up to me and he said, "Hey, Randy, you did a really great job." And I don't do it for the glory, so I always like to defer. "Oh yeah, thanks. No problem. All right." And so he repeated it again. He goes, "No, you don't understand. You really are good at presenting." And I said, "Well, I appreciate that." And I said, "Well, that actually begs to ask me a question. Out of this training that you got, how long have you worked here?" And he said he'd worked in our PD office or PD department for 15 years.

Jill James:

The police department, for anybody who's wondering.

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, sorry, police department.

Jill James:

It's okay.

Randy Milliron:

"How much of this training have you had over the years since you've been here at the city?" And he held up the zero. And that's when I realized, wow, there's a great opportunity here. I could actually take what I learned and taught at the mines and use that. So when I presented it to the HR director, his response to me was, "Stay in your lane." And I didn't understand it at the point, and so I festered over it for the next couple days until finally I just had to clarify what he meant by that. And he said, "Well, Randy, people see you as the safety manager. They don't see you as a leadership development person." And so I said, "Okay, well, if I'm not going to do it, we really need to do something here at the city." So for the first few years, they would hire a consultant to come in and do these little one-hour leadership trainings. And for the most part, they were pretty good, but they were just grazing the surface. They didn't really get into any much depth. Well, when we had a new HR director came on board, and I wanted her to know that I do have this knowledge base that I can operate out of. And we actually hired a gal from Colorado. She came up and did Crucial Conversations, which is a great book. If you haven't read it, you really need to read it. But she actually taught, so two sessions, two eight-hour sessions. She took us through the basis of the book and then really how to have a critical or crucial conversation. So in talking to this trainer, any time I'm around a leadership trainer, I'm just like a seven-year-old boy, just totally geeking out. And so I said, "Hey, can you come to my office for a minute?" And we're on a break. And so I showed her my bookcase and I said, "I love what you're doing, and I really hope it takes here at the city, but here is my world." And she starts pulling books out of the shelf going, "Oh yeah, I've read this book. Oh, this book is really great," and these different things. And we just had this rapport back and forth. And she goes, "Well, why haven't you done this here at the city?" And I said, "Well, because the previous HR director said that ..."

Jill James:

Wasn't your lane.

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, it wasn't my lane. So she said, "Well, it's going to be my recommendation." So she recommended to the HR director that I do get involved. So we're looking at this next year her and I co-teaching a session, and then me kind of taking over that.

Jill James:

Fabulous.

Randy Milliron:

Yeah, so I'm pretty excited about what that looks like next year.

Jill James:

Oh, that's fabulous. And perfect timing, as you're coming up on the midst of your budget decisions that you have to make, and pitches for January. Yeah. Randy, I want to make sure that I don't forget to ask you this as we're closing out our time today. You are in the process of writing a book. Do you want to tell the audience a little bit about it, or is this a surprise? What can you share? Because that's personal. Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

Well, it's interesting, because I really wanted to take the knowledge that I have had over the past almost 27, yeah, over 27 years-

Jill James:

Yeah.

Randy Milliron:

... of being in management and really present it in a book format. And I remember I had a mentor, actually from your neck of the woods, that we actually hired to come out, and he was our motivational speaker during our June safety day. We have a huge safety day every June to support National Safety Council's June Safety Month. And he came out, and I had seen him, the college had hired him a couple different times. So I had seen him speak before, and he is a 10-year-older version of me. The way he presents, I just loved it. So I really developed this friendship with him. So we had communicated over LinkedIn and texts and stuff, and when we hired him to come to be our motivational speaker, kick off our sessions, I was able to actually take him to dinner and to actually ask him questions that, he had been on the speaker tour for the last five or six years. And so really trying to pick his brain. And when I mentioned, I was like, "Yeah, I've always wanted to write a book." And he's like, "What's stopping you?" And I go, "What?" And no one's ever asked me that. Because I usually throw that out and everybody just blows by it. And he goes, "Well, what's your book on?" I go, "Well, it's kind of on leadership and things. It's kind of like the anti-leadership book." And he said, "Explain that." And I said, "Well, I've learned through the years of what not to do. So what the book is going to be is things that I've learned over the years of how I've been in situations where it did not go right, and give them the insight of how it could actually go right." So he's been holding my feet to the fire.

Jill James:

Wonderful.

Randy Milliron:

And after that meeting, he's been, "Okay, so when's this book coming out?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm in the table of contents." And he said, "No, every month you need to write a little more." So I've been trying to stay diligent with that, and that's one of my main goals in 2025, is to, I have all the chapters. I have all the chapters penned. I just need to add stories and the takeaways from each chapter, but I'm really looking forward to it. So I've got a couple friends that are authors or that authored books, so getting their insight on, how do you do this? So trying to get their knowledge instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and learn trial by fire, is trying to take the insight from them. So yeah, I'm pretty excited about that.

Jill James:

Fabulous, fabulous. I'm interested to hear, when you're done, I'm interested to read it and see what I can learn from those what not to do experiences as well.

Randy Milliron:

Oh, don't worry. You will get a signed copy delivered to you.

Jill James:

Oh, thanks. We'll see each other in the conference circuit.

Randy Milliron:

Oh yeah, that's true.

Jill James:

Yeah. So Randy, thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing what you've learned about leadership. Really appreciate that. Appreciate it. Thank you for coming on and thanks for teaching-

Randy Milliron:

I really appreciate you having me.

Jill James:

Yeah, and thanks for teaching us about government. Love that.

Randy Milliron:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Love that. Thank you.

Randy Milliron:

Fun stuff.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May your employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is at the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player that you have. Or if you prefer, you can read the transcript and listen at hsi.com. We'd love it if you leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals like Randy and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer, and until next time, thanks for listening.