124: Suicide Prevention and Mental Health Support in Construction

Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode is recorded January 9th, 2025. Our guest today is Sondra Lavoie, an assistant vice president risk control specialist with Sompo. Sondra has her CSP and CHST. Sondra joins us today from Boise, Idaho. Welcome to the show, Sondra, and I can't believe how I can't speak on the first recording of 2025. So happy you're here with me for all of the edits for Emily.

Sondra Lavoie:

Hi, Jill. I'm thrilled to be here and to actually be on your podcast. Thank you for having me.

Jill James:

Oh, you're so welcome. And welcome to everyone who's listening to 2025 and another year of the Accidental Safety Pro where we get to share the origin stories of so many safety professionals globally. It's just a treat to be able to spend time with people like yourself, Sondra. So I know that you had mentioned that you had a long journey to this career. So what is your origin story? How did you get here?

Sondra Lavoie:

So as many of us, we get into safety by raising our hands, thinking that we can do safety because of the example in front of us. I started working in construction back in the day as a receptionist when women were actually not allowed, or I was told women were not allowed, out in the field, and it was really hard to digest because that's where the exciting stuff is out in the field. I then proceeded to move up into another company called ISEC, and I started as a receptionist there and then was given the opportunities to work my way up as into a project engineer working division nine and 10, and the specialties. And it is where I really started to hone in on my construction wisdom as I like to say, and that wisdom has definitely paid itself forward in my safety career. Then I made the move to Idaho and worked for a concrete placing company, and they were not really safe and all they were doing were OSHA logs. I'm like, "I can do an OSHA log. I see what you guys are doing there." And watching this company be stripped of their OSHA partnership, hiring people that were not of the mindset that I was gaining, the knowledge I was gaining, I started to really start the ground base of getting my OSHA 10, my OSHA 30, and you're having those aha moments. Well, then at the age of 40, I decided to go back to school and get my degree in occupational safety and health, and that's terrifying at the age of 40.And I have severe dyslexia. So I'm also not only dealing with the fear of age, my learning disability, and going, "Okay, we're going to do this," and it's a major decision that you're making with your family. And I have gotten the trust of multiple trades in, as I like to call, the trade skilled craftsman, boots on the ground, because of my knowledge and the language that I understand. So I go and I go to school at Columbia Southern, which I love them, and I end up getting my first mentor who is Bruce Hollcroft, who is the new and incoming BCSP board president, and he's like, "You can do more." And to have somebody at his level to say, "You can do more" is pretty phenomenal.

Jill James:

What a gift.

Sondra Lavoie:

And you're like, "Wow." And he ends up being my first mentor in safety. And by the time I graduated from college, I have my CHST. And he's like, "You're going to go get your ASP." And I'm like, "I am?" Then one of the great things about mentors is they open up the spectrum of safety for you and the people that they hold court with. And there's a saying out there that is, "A good mentor expects you to do good. A great mentor expects you to leave and do great." And this is-

Jill James:

Yes.

Sondra Lavoie:

... what Bruce has for me. So, fast-forward, I get my ASP, I get my CSP, and within the time from the past 10 years, I have graduated from college, been awarded twice the BCSP Award of Excellence for the STS and the CHST. I'm the only woman that has won the Construction Health and Safety Technician Award.

Jill James:

Yes.

Sondra Lavoie:

And I don't take that lightly. I understand the gravity that all of that holds, but I feel that as I grow in this profession, I have earned a wonderful position and I've earned it at Sompo. And funny story is I was having dinner about three years ago with some women, and these are some of the top-top women in the industry of safety, one of them, Monique Parker. And I was having dinner with Christine Sullivan who is the head of risk control in North America. She's our vice president for Sompo. And I said, "I'm going to work for you." And she kind of looked at me and gave me that side of like, "Okay, lady, I just met you and we're having chips and salsa." And I'm like, "No, I'm going to work for you. You have some of the best safety professionals in and under your wing. I'm going to work for you." A year later, I was working for her.

Jill James:

That's a great manifest.

Sondra Lavoie:

And I am here now because of those people that have invited me to sit at their table.

Jill James:

So many things to say there. I want to back up to something and then I want to come back to this table conversation because I think it's really important what you just said, but you began by talking about how you gained your construction wisdom. I loved how you framed that, and this was long before you went to earn your degree. So can you just tell us a little bit about how you learned construction wisdom? You talked about boots on the ground. What was that first foray into it that sort of lit you up where you were like, "I need to know more about this and I like it"?

Sondra Lavoie:

Oh, yes, I love this portion of the knowledge that I had. One of the things that you'll quickly learn in a construction arena is that you can't lie, you can't BS your way around construction workers. They are the salt of the earth.

Jill James:

For sure.

Sondra Lavoie:

And so when you go out on a construction site, you need to speak their language, you need to be able to know where they're at. And they don't call themselves construction workers, they call themselves boots on the ground. They don't call a construction site a construction site, they call it the field. So when you're out there, you're like, "Where are the boots on the ground out in the field? Are they tying bar? Are they slinging mud?" There is a language teach trade. And having that wisdom and being able to go out there and say, "If I'm working with a mechanical contractor, show me your MEPs, show me your schedule." And that is the wisdom that I gained in reading specifications and reading gap schedules and reading those little nuggets that somebody said, "This is going to get you to that next level with the crew. And those boots on the ground are going to understand what you're saying when you get out there." And that is to me, a form of respect to them and a level of trust that you're saying, "Trust me, I understand the language and what you're doing."

Jill James:

And it is a unique language. I mean, nearly all professions have their own language. And so if you want to specialize for those of you who are listening and thinking, "Yeah, this is a message not only for the construction trades, but for any industry that you get into, to learn their language."

Sondra Lavoie:

Definitely.

Jill James:

Okay, so you started to learn the language, you're mastering the language, and then what got you excited like, "Gosh, this is kind of where I want to stay"? What was it that you loved about it and still do I'm assuming?

Sondra Lavoie:

One of the things that I love about being out in the field is I get to travel all over the world. I have worked all across our beautiful nation on projects that are infrastructure for communities, buildings that have made these cities more functional, or even being part of a crew where I may not be doing the manual portion of it, but I'm helping them with procurements and schedules and getting data into the people so they can move forward and know that I have an invisible handprint on that building, an invisible handprint on that group of people and making sure that they have trust in me. And I get to live up to my strongest value, and that's integrity that if I say I'm going to do something, I'm doing it. And that has been one of the most important things to me is showing that value and that I have integrity and I believe in them and I trust them. And I understand that the American construction worker is the backbone, is the backbone of our country because they're building the houses that we raise our family in. They build the buildings that we create our dreams in. They are who we need to support and give our resources to freely but also understand the pressures that they're under.

Jill James:

Yes, preach it. Sondra, you mentioned that your highest value is integrity. I've gone through a value exercise myself. My word is humanity. So for anyone who's wondering like, "What are these ladies talking about here with their highest value?" How did you figure out yours?

Sondra Lavoie:

I have one thing that I have to live up to everyone, and that's my word. We come in naked, we leave naked. You don't get to take your money, you don't get to do anything, but you do have your legacy. How do you want to leave the room and how do you want people to remember you? Did you make an impact and was it a positive one? And I feel your integrity needs to be at the forefront of all the values, and it brings humanity to the table. It shows where your true character is. And sometimes having integrity means that you have to say no to things and means you have to step back and you have to save your integrity. And it's a full scope of emotions, and it's a thought process that you have to be conscious of in regards to the words you say, the actions you take. And it's really important because it's something that you have to do even when people aren't looking.

Jill James:

That's right. And when people may never know also. Thank you for that. Fast-forwarding as a safety professional, you are getting yourself a seat at the table and it sounds like you were elbowing your way in, but you were also invited in. So do you want to talk about how that worked for you or your belief system, particularly as women in safety, the importance of a seat at that table? And if someone's wondering like, "How did she do that, or how can I open a door for someone else?" What does that look like in your estimation?

Sondra Lavoie:

That's a great question. And I feel that a lot of women get intimidated by other women and don't understand the word yes, understanding the word yes, but also understanding that no is a full and complete sentence is very important when knocking on doors and who is going to move you forward. I was at the BCSP award ceremony getting my CHST Award of Excellence back in, I want to say 2021 or 2020. And I was in an elevator with another woman who I never had met in my life, and it ended up being Linda Tapp, and she is the president-elect of elect of the current ASSP. She'll be coming in after Pam Mikulski, who is also another mentor of mine. And I just took the time to say, "Hi, I am Sondra. I see you're here too" not knowing that she was getting the Grand Poobah award, and here I am with my little medal, my CHST medal going, "Look what I have." But quickly was able to say, "Hi, I'm Sondra," and you're going to pick up an odd vibe. People will either shut you out or open a door and you have to be able to read the room. And I think that Linda was able to not only say, "Hey, I see that you are working hard on your safety career. You are actually winning an award that a lot of women are afraid to even apply for or don't even think that they can get. I want to get to know more about you." And being vulnerable was the key aspect here. Being vulnerable enough to say, "You know what? I didn't go to college until I was 40. I really worked my way up through the trenches." And when I am being vulnerable, I have to be careful not to have diarrhea of the mouth.

Jill James:

Same. Maybe this is why I have a podcast because I like to speak. Yes, go ahead.

Sondra Lavoie:

Not telling her my whole life story or telling anyone my whole life the story and just being vulnerable enough to say, "I am working towards this goal, I am working to be in a position in life where other safety professionals feel safe with me to be vulnerable." And she gave me that, and she has introduced me to Monique and Linnea Miles and other women like Pam.

Jill James:

Dear friends.

Sondra Lavoie:

And I'm safe in that arena. And for a safety person to feel safe with their vulnerabilities and to feel safe like, "This is my goal, this is where I want to be in the future." And I have magnanimous goals where I can be vulnerable enough to the people at this table and say, "I want to be the safety director on a UNESCO site on one of the castles that is being redone, or the pyramids, or how the safety director was recently with the Cathedral at Notre Dame." I mean, just a magnanimous goal to have the best skilled craftsman know that I'm keeping them safe.

Jill James:

Beautiful, beautiful. That's a fantastic goal. Oh, thank you for that. So, Sondra, so you're currently, as I said in the introduction, assistant vice president risk control specialist with Sompo. So what does day-to-day look like now in this part of your career?

Sondra Lavoie:

Well, this is really a lot of fun. I have a job that I love. I've actually manifested this job. I know that some people will be like, "That's a bit woo-woo." But yeah, I actually took the actions to make sure that I put myself in a position to where I was meeting the appetite of what Sompo wanted in a risk control specialist. And my day to day is that I reach out to global clients and I work with millions and million-dollar properties and work comp accounts where I'm helping people to make just their life safer, make their properties safer. And it's a really spectacular job. It's a phenomenal company to work for. And, again, I work with some of the best in the safety profession. Take for instance, my phenomenal manager, Daniel Hopwood, just became a fellow with the ASSP, and he's somebody that I can go to all the time and talk to. I work with Christine Sullivan, who now I would love to go and have her go to dinner and say, "I told you so," and I get to work with other upcoming safety professionals that are just a resource to me and I'm like, "How do you do that?" And I've been also had the honor to mentor, and I never thought I would in turn become a mentor and watch these mentees grow.

Jill James:

Mentoring is so fun and also such a vast responsibility. It always makes me nervous when someone asks me for advice. I'm like, "I hope I'm doing this right." It's a big responsibility. Oh, so, Sondra, I know that one of your passions, passionate subjects is in suicide prevention in the construction industry. Can you talk about that and what can you share with our audience that's for people who are wondering like, "What can I do? How can we impact this?" I know that you have answers to that.

Sondra Lavoie:

One of the great things about being a safety professional is that we have the gift of the gab, and I thank you so much for allowing me to speak on this because it's something that I am very passionate about because I truly do care about our American construction worker and all that they do. And I actually have to mention that I have a child in the trades. I have a child that is a lineman, and I can't be more proud of my daughter being a woman in construction and also being in the trades. And so this directly hits me that if I don't talk about it, I'm ignoring it. And if I'm not using the skills and the resources that I know, I'm doing more harm than good, and that's not my intention. So, okay.

Jill James:

I want to ask a question. In case the audience is like, "Gosh, why are these women talking about suicide prevention and construction?" In case some listeners don't know that this is really a real issue, do you want to set that part up?

Sondra Lavoie:

Yeah, definitely. We have some major stats that I can give you. In 2022, 100,000 people committed suicide. 56 of them were men in construction. And that is just appalling to me that that number is so high. And we can even hone it down into men in the military, men... Just so many things. And I start looking at the statistics like honing it into my state. In 2023, 17 construction workers committed to the act of suicide and nobody talked about it. And I was like, "Why isn't anybody talking about what's happening in my backyard? Why aren't we giving our skill set of communication of how we have difficult conversations, how we have hard conversations with CEOs, CFOs, how we have hard conversations with these crew of men, why aren't we giving them our skill set and how to have hard conversations?" And when I talk to companies, it's usually really hard when they come and talk to me about suicide. It's usually after like, "What do I do after?" And I'm like, I go in there and I say, "By a raise of hands, how many of you can tell me what 988 is?" And that is our national suicide hotline. And then I ask many of them, I go, "Do you know the resources and your employee assistance program?" And not one of them can raise their hands, which is heartbreaking to me because usually on an average, a company has five in-person mental wellness meetings with a professional giving to that family, not just that individual, that individual's family for free. And I'm just telling them that they also know who is having an issue. And I'll be very honest with people that the company culture has nothing to do with the workforce culture. There are two opposite ends of the universe. You're going to find that the company culture is like their living mission statements and values, and look at who we are. Your workforce culture has a completely different leadership, and there's usually two to three people out there that are the true leaders of that group. And I always say, "Who's the leader out here? Who is motivating the workers to go to the stretch and flex? Who is motivating the workers to do the right thing?" And usually, I figure that out at the 5:00 A.M. tailgate meetings. And at those tailgates, one of the things that I can say is when they show up, you need to show up. So if they're showing up at 5:00 A.M. And right now here in my hometown of Boise, 5:00 A.M., the temperature is probably around 20 degrees. And so that forms a little bit of respect. I am going to say that food helps. Donuts is a love language. Donuts is an olive branch in safety. We all know that, you bring a box of donuts, you have somebody to show up. But I did also state one of the quick little wisdom things that I learned when I was in construction actually as a project engineer is that you need to speak their language because they will dismiss you so fast, and you usually don't have an opportunity to gain their trust again. And one thing I know about construction workers and working with construction workers is they don't want to hear the fluff. They want to get into the brass tacks, they want to have the knowledge of what it is. So when I talk to construction workers about having hard conversations, they know who's going through a divorce, they know who is on the drugs, they know who's having a drinking issue. They know. They're that close, they're that tight. They spend more time with each other than they do their own family, so you're gaining trust with the workforce. Yeah.

Jill James:

Pardon me, Sondra. So when, like you said, you often get invited in the aftermath of someone's death by suicide, and you walk in the door and start having hard conversations, you're talking about these hard conversations that you're having to gain insight to find out what is that culture that you're talking about and then what mitigations can be done. And if I'm getting this right, I'm just trying to echo what I'm hearing here for our listeners, you begin those hard conversations by leaning into rapidly building trust. And one of those things is knowing the language before you walk in the door.

Sondra Lavoie:

Yes.

Jill James:

Yes? Am I getting that right?

Sondra Lavoie:

You are absolutely knocking it out of the park with that.

Jill James:

Yeah. And then talk more about, so you have a bunch of traumatized people, their friend, their colleague is not with them. You've got a bunch of people in a room. It may be 5:00 A.M, it might be noon, whatever. What's the first thing you do?

Sondra Lavoie:

I check my body tone, I check my body language. You have people that are hurting, you have people that are at a loss, you have people that have spent time with a coworker for a long time. And so I make sure I have a non-judgmental tone about me and how I stand, how I look them in the eye, my voice. I'm keeping it calm because there's definite fear in the room like, "What happened? How are we going to do this without that person?" I come prepared. I come prepared with who I'm speaking to, what the audience is, and I'm aware of the warning signs that I could say, "There were warning signs that we need to recognize, and there's warning signs that you are going to see again." And how do you speak up so it doesn't happen again? I let them know that they have the right to pay attention and say something. And nothing breaks my heart more as when I'm asking people about the event, if the suicide happens on a job site or a suicide happens and they tell me, "Oh, I knew he was going through a divorce and he was having a really hard time and he was really struggling just showing up to work." Why didn't you say something? Suicide and talking about mental health when you know there's resources... Or did you know there were any resources? You can say something. You have that right, you're saving a life." And giving people the ability to have that conversation and know that they can have a conversation about suicide, it doesn't make it an ugly conversation. It's actually a conversation of relief like, "Oh, I can. Yes, you can. And you don't need permission. You can actually be that person, that conduit of trust, that conduit of humanity."

Jill James:

Yeah, you're not waiting for the boss to notice these things because it's over your pay grade or it's a hard topic or whatever.

Sondra Lavoie:

Exactly. And that's where I say sometimes the workforce is completely different than the company culture.

Jill James:

Yeah. How did you learn to do these things? Are you self-taught? Talk about how you learn that. So people who are listening are like, "I need to do this in my workplace too." Talk about that.

Sondra Lavoie:

Well, the day that I was asked, OSHA actually asked me to come and speak in front of a group of construction companies in regards to safety and mental health and suicide prevention and safety in 2022. And I said, "Are we sure? Don't we want to talk about trenches or harnesses?" And they're like, "Well, if you can tell somebody to stay out of a trench and you can tell somebody to put on a harness, you can tell them about suicide prevention and awareness." They're all three hard conversations. So one of the things that I did is I actually went to see where the resources is, and it broke my heart. It really did. When you go to the CDC and you go to OSHA and you see that this has been happening long before COVID even hit, this has been being measured since 2012, and that's heartbreaking. And now it's just coming to the forefront. So I had a lot of resources through OSHA, through NIOSH, through many entities to have my facts and have information and have resources to the people I was talking to. And one of the skill sets I have as a safety professional is talking in front of people and being vulnerable up there and just saying, "You can do it too. If you have questions, I can come and help you out, and I would be more than happy to give you my resources." And I think that's one thing that I find unique. It gives me resources that I like to share. And one of the things that I've found with the top safety professionals that I've mentioned is that they share their resources, they don't hoard them. So what has made me a person of resource, not even a subject matter expert, is a person of resource for others to become those subject matter experts within their boots on the ground crews and within their community on all levels of safety, not just construction. We can talk about IT, we can talk about C-suites, we can talk about electrical workers, we can talk about people in manufacturing, that they all have the resources that I'm giving them. And I guess I would say I'm a subject matter expert in the resources.

Jill James:

No, that's perfect. That's beautiful. As people are listening to our conversation today, I think it's important to share that you are not a mental health professional. You are a safety professional and you've figured out a way to have, I loved how OSHA put this to you, you can have a hard conversation, it's hard about a trench, it's hard about fall protections, it's hard about mental health. Yes, that's true. And so it feels to me, Sondra, like you've identified the hazards. Someone's going through a divorce, someone's having issues with finances, someone's having substance abuse issues. You've identified the hazards, and you're having those hard conversations with people, not unlike you would with, "You're taking shortcuts when you're digging the trench. I see you haven't done any sloping, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada," about the hazards themselves. And then what are the mitigations, what are the things you can put in place? And with regard to this particular subject, it's the things that you were talking about before. Do you know about 988? Do you know that there are free mental health resources through the company EAP? What other resources are you sharing with people, Sondra?

Sondra Lavoie:

The other resources that I'm sharing with people are NAMI, and these are outside of our profession. And I want people to realize that usually the act of taking one's life doesn't happen at work. There are OSHA recordables that you can look up and see that it has happened at work, but these events usually take place outside of work. There are multitudes, multitudes of suicide awareness and prevention, mental health advocacy groups that I have shared depending on where I'm at. And it could be regional, it can be nationwide. And also, one of the other resources that I share are various language resources. Our Hispanic communities, our Asian communities. We need to make sure that they have those resources too. It's not just a singular resource through OSHA. And I love NAMI, it is-

Jill James:

Talk about NAMI for a second and what it stands for in case people aren't familiar.

Sondra Lavoie:

NAMI is the National Alliance on Mental Illness. And one of the things I like about them is that you can just be going through a hard time. It can be the, I like to say the risk control of something before it gets bad. It is a grassroots organization. And here's the thing is one in five of us adults experience a mental illness. And it happens. I actually was held to a non-compete at one point, and I really do associate my profession with who I am. It's integral. I had a mental health situation and I didn't want people to know. NAMI is very much an anonymous organization that you can go to and keep your privacy, your privacy, because a lot of people, especially construction workers, they're very stoic. They don't want people to know, "Hey, I'm going through issues. I have things." And also, the stigmas in construction like, "Leave your emotions at the door, man up." All of those stigmas are there. NAMI is something outside of work that you can go to and keep your privacy, keep your confidentiality through them. And there are support groups, there are so many different health treatments that they offer and that you can go to them. And there's one in every state and sometimes there's multiple in every state, especially in the larger cities, like in Boise. I know we have a Boise facility here and it's wonderful. It is absolutely wonderful. And especially keeping that, "I want to be anonymous, I want to keep my mental health information confidential."

Jill James:

Yeah. I had the benefit of having my... I took mental health first aid training a number of years ago, and I took it through NAMI and just so grateful for that organization. I know that my local community has a, I don't know if they're called chapters, but they have a group, let's say, of what you're talking about. Yeah. For anyone who's wondering, is NAMI N-A-M-I, is it a dot org?

Sondra Lavoie:

It is a dot org. It is N-A-M-I like you said, and you can just pull them up and you can definitely find your local affiliate and you just put in your ZIP code and they have different... They have Spanish speaking and they have just a ton of support groups. I mean, one of the things that I find a tragedy is here in Boise, we had what they call a firestorm of youth committing to the act and a lot of these parents didn't know where to go. NAMI was able to step up. Their individual companies were able to step up and help them because there's an aftermath and that is a mental health issue. And I couldn't imagine going to work and functioning a loader if my child was having a mental health issue. And those are the tough conversations that we have. This is where we gain trust with our co-workers because that's what safety is. Safety is trust, safety is integrity, safety is humanity. And I have a saying that I like to say to everyone when I do a presentation is, "What if all of your success was measured by how safe someone feels next to you? All of your success, not your car, not your house, not the jewels on your hands, but how safe someone feels next to you. What if that was a measurement of your success?"

Jill James:

That's beautiful. Sondra, when you're having these conversations, doing these presentations, what are people's responses? You're having hard conversations, you're talking about difficult things. Do you want to share a little bit about how the flow of energy and information happens?

Sondra Lavoie:

Usually when I say, "Hey, we're about to have a hard conversation. I'm about to present something to you," I don't take my presentation as like, "I'm going to be up here talking from slide to slide." I'm like, "I'm talking to you human to human. We're talking about your life, maybe your wife's life, maybe your mom's life. And I will present a few statistics in regards to what's happening in the world and what's the current level of suicides in people, and age groups, and different demographics," but mostly I focus on the conversation and people feeling free to normalize this conversation. You and I are normalizing that conversation right now. We're talking about it. And people should feel no anxiety, no worry that they're going to say the wrong thing in regards to having the conversation about suicide. And I feel people are scared to have it. And you do not. I am not a mental health doctor or specialist. I'm somebody who has a good skillset and having a conversation, and I want to get to know you. And it's interesting you were asking about reactions. I always love it when I have that very old sage gentleman come up to me and go, "Well, I really want to talk to you about how hard it is to be in construction after 40 years." And I'm like, "I'm here for you." And I remember my key things that I focus on. I want them to feel safe in my presence, I want them to know it's okay to be vulnerable and to be who they are and accept them as they come. As they come here to me, I want them to know that I am here for them. And it actually makes it a really rewarding life, a rewarding profession, to know that you have the trust of these boots on the ground, that they can trust you with their life in and out of their profession of their construction jobs.

Jill James:

Right. So, Sondra, the other part of that, so you've had these hard conversations, you offered resources. I suspect, I don't know, but I suspect you need to have these same hard conversations with C-suites as well, because I mean, everybody has to be on the same page, right?

Sondra Lavoie:

Yes. You don't keep this a secret. You do not, because you need to let them know, "Hey, you have a gentleman out there that is struggling mentally and maybe self-medicating, maybe not functioning at 100%, and you really don't want to run that risk of him or her or that person creating an issue for you." So I am always very open and I find that I'm filling in the gap between the C-suite and the boots on the ground. The C-suite is usually focused on getting more jobs, more jobs, more jobs, promoting the business, and the boots on the ground are making progress on existing jobs. So there's usually a gap of communication. And again, the C-suite's not out in the field. Safety has a very unique opportunity and gift given to them that they get to be out on the manufacturing floors, they get to be out in the fields on these construction sites watching the cranes do their crane picks. You get to see people create and build. The C-suite's usually in the building far away, far, far away. So you get to be that conduit of trust, that conduit of information, and telling it like it is. And I think that's one of the good things about what I get to do in my profession is I'm very honest. I'm like, "This is what's going down. This is what's happening." And be just brass tacks because people want to know the truth and that is a gift that I have is that I like to tell the truth.

Jill James:

And how was that generally received for you?

Sondra Lavoie:

Usually, "What the what? I didn't know that was happening out there." And I find that disconnect more often than not. I've only seen very few presidents, CEOs, CFOs actually go out to the job site and see what's happening. And it breaks my heart because there's some really great human beings out there with some great stories, and they're raising great families, and they are doing amazing things. And to get to really know them is a privilege and an honor, and I would hope that more of the C suite would get integrated with those people that they're hiring and get to know them because they've got some pretty special humans out there.

Jill James:

Yes, indeed. I had the privilege to work with a leader a number of jobs ago who was very much into knowing the workforce and would specifically meet with people on the regular and want to know about their lives. I know you can't do, I mean in large, large organizations, this becomes really hard, but that doesn't mean that it can't be modeled from the top and then continue down into leadership roles. I had this particular leader every year during benefits time, he would come to me and say, "Okay, I just got the update on what HR is finding for health insurance benefits this year, and this is what I heard, and this is what I heard. How would that impact you?" He'd ask me that directly. "If we made this change, what would that do for you as an employee?"

Sondra Lavoie:

Oh, wow.

Jill James:

And I'd tell him and then he'd go, "Okay." So I also talked to, and he'd name different employees that he went around and spoke with in a manufacturing facility and said, "Okay, this is what I'm hearing." And then he would make his decision based on what he had asked people like, "How would this impact your life?"

Sondra Lavoie:

Yeah, that's huge.

Jill James:

Isn't it?

Sondra Lavoie:

That's rare. That's very rare. What a blessing to have had that person in your life.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah. It's possible, right? So, Sondra-

Sondra Lavoie:

But also, you can emulate that. You can be that person that shows that and plays that part.

Jill James:

That's right, that's right. That was mentor material right there, right? For sure. So you have the hard conversations, you are the conduit to the leadership, you've talked about resources, you talked about data and statistics that you use and gather from OSHA, from CDC, the resource of NAMI, we talked about mental health first aid. Are there other things that you typically share you want to make sure that we talk about today?

Sondra Lavoie:

I think that we need to understand the diversity of what we have out there is really great people and understanding the languages that they speak. And I'm not talking about just language as in dialects, but being very clear that when you speak to a C-suite, it's different than the language you're going to be talking to somebody who's boots on the ground in regards to safety and what their goals are. And you need to understand what those goals look like. I think it's really important that as you grow as a safety professional, that you continue to look and bring up others. Now that I have a seat at the table and I have a skill of talking and communicating in a way to those that are actually making impact if they're hurt on a company, or if they're a loss, I see that impact that I can share that with other safety professionals and they find me as a resource. And like I said, I really like being the subject matter expert of resources to others.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's good.

Sondra Lavoie:

Again, going back, I don't take that lightly. I take that with, I understand the gravity of that and what that holds in the room when I enter it.

Jill James:

Yeah. Sondra, how do you think we can teach the communication skills that you're talking about for our profession?

Sondra Lavoie:

Definitely mentorship. Mentorship, finding also who you want to be like. There are people out there that I'm like, "I want to be in that position. I want to be on that stage." I made a goal to be a speaker at the ASSP PDC. I made it a goal. And that's a pretty lofty goal because it's a heavy application and you're going up against some great contenders and you really have to have your ducks in a row. So I did the work. I went to talk to a person that, her name is Megan McCaleb, and she actually has a class that I went to to learn how to speak on stage, to learn how to articulate on stage, to use my body language on stage, the props. I actually bring a box of donuts on stage and hand one out when I'm up there. I really think it's important that you understand how to use a slideshow presentation and communicate. And in regards to that, I think that having that skillset shows others that you can show them how to have that skillset and they can come up and ask you. And I'm happy to be like, "Well, stop reading from your slides. Show a little bit of vulnerability." And one of the things I do talk about is having my mental health scare and situation when I was held to my non-compete for six months and not having an income for six months and being told that my home would be taken from me if I set one foot on a construction site. I was devastated. And being vulnerable, just giving that nugget of like, "I'm not just Safety Sondra, I'm also human like you."

Jill James:

Yeah, that's beautiful. I also have had public speaking coaching as well, sought that out on my own. Sounds like you did as well. So if people thinking, "What? Can you do that?" Yes, you can. Yes, you can.

Sondra Lavoie:

Yeah.

Jill James:

And sometimes you can find resources where it's done in a group setting where you actually get to practice with other people. Sometimes you can have individual coaching. I've done both. Have you done both as well, Sondra?

Sondra Lavoie:

I've only done it in a group setting, and it's really exciting to do it in a group because I was the only safety professional in my group.

Jill James:

Yeah, me too.

Sondra Lavoie:

I was working with real estate agents, I was working with mental health providers, I was working with a CEO of a nut packing company that I was like, "Wow. And you want to present on nuts? I want to hear about your presentation on granola."

Jill James:

Yeah, I've done the same thing, done the same thing. And then I was telling a story that eventually turned into a keynote address that I've given many times, and it happens to be about a workplace death on a construction site and the eventual good things that came out of a tragic situation. And the coach was saying like, "Okay, Jill, I can tell that there's something else there that you want to talk about, but you're not saying it. What's happening?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm not saying that because I'm going to cry." And he's like, "Well, that's okay." I'm like, "What? You can't cry when you're doing public speaking." He's like, "Yes, you can." And also he is like, "Practice, practice, practice and soon you'll get over that kind of choke point and then it won't happen." And he was right.

Sondra Lavoie:

Yeah.

Jill James:

I mean, in addition to all of the other things that you were talking about, about your body language and about how to use your body language to literally zoom like a camera for impact on things like, "Yes, safety professionals, these are all the things that you can learn that increases our communication skills for our profession."

Sondra Lavoie:

And I think it all just starts to fold in on itself and it starts to just build upon itself that my communications is helping me and my safety profession, and it's helping me to maintain these really great relationships and they're recommending me to other speaking engagements. I was asked to speak in Texas and where so much happens in Texas, and I just felt honored to be asked by so many people to come and speak because of the skill set that I have and the vulnerability that I share in my talk. And then also the ability to give a resource to people like, "Here, here's what you do when you have to have this hard conversation. Here's what you do when you are in a situation that's hard, I give this to you and you can do it too."

Jill James:

I mean, that's the gift, right?

Sondra Lavoie:

Yeah.

Jill James:

That is gift. That's what we want to leave people with. That is it. That's fantastic.

Sondra Lavoie:

And it speaks to, again, to wrap it around, to the integrity that I want to live to, the humanity that we want to give as a community. It is that, that's what the importance is about what we are giving as safety professionals.

Jill James:

Yes. And the things that you're talking about in turn become part of the fabric of who you are as a human being, whether you're on a job site or not.

Sondra Lavoie:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Happens to [inaudible 00:54:21]. Yeah.

Sondra Lavoie:

Yeah, that rings to my heartstrings, Jill. It does. I really take a lot of pride in our profession and giving back to those here. And you are doing the same for us. And I spend a lot of time with you in the car on the windshield time, as they call it, listening to your podcast and all of these safety professionals that are taking time here in your podcast are giving, and there's so many nuggets that I get and I was like, "Oh my gosh, am I going to be as good as that person? Am I going to be as good as this person?" I just think that people need to not compare themselves either in their journey of safety. It took me... I'm almost going to be in my mid-50s, and I just didn't start my safety profession until my late 30s. It's my journey and I think that people need to understand your journey is special, your story is special because it's going to inspire the next safety professional regardless of where they're starting. You are an inspiration. And your podcast gives a lot of that to us.

Jill James:

Thank you, thank you. And, Sondra, what a beautiful way to wrap things up. I was going to ask you for final thoughts, but you just did it. You just did it.

Sondra Lavoie:

Thank you.

Jill James:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for all that you're doing to impact industry, specifically the construction industry. Thank you for your work, and I look forward to seeing you on the speaking circuit in 2025.

Sondra Lavoie:

Thank you. And thank you for having me, I really do appreciate your time.

Jill James:

Yeah. You're welcome, you're welcome. And thank you all for spending your time listening today, and more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is the core of our practice. If you aren't subscribed and you want to hear past in future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. Or if you'd prefer to read the transcript, you can do that too and listen at hsi.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more professionals like Sondra and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.