Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro, brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded April 29th, 2022. My name is Jill James, HSI's chief safety officer and today I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Todd Loushine. Todd is associate professor at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater in the occupational safety degree program, and is also vice president of ASSP's region five. Todd is also a professional engineer, a certified industrial hygienist and a certified safety professional. And today, for the first time ever, I am passing the host microphone over to Todd. Welcome to the show.

Todd Loushine:

Thank you, Jill. And I promise to give back your show in as good as condition as you gave it to me. How does that sound?

Jill James:

That's all perfect.

Todd Loushine:

Welcome, one and all, to a very special episode of the Accidental Safety Pro Podcast. Like Jill said, my name is Todd and I'm a longtime fan of the show and a very longtime friend of the host, Jill James. Jill, congratulations and happy fourth anniversary on your podcast.

Jill James:

Thank you so much. I cannot believe it has been four years and also just a reminder to everyone, Todd's voice is not new to you if you've been listening for all four years. Todd has been on episode 7 and 49, and now today.

Todd Loushine:

Now, Jill, did you know that the traditional fourth anniversary gift is fruits and flowers?

Jill James:

No, and I don't see any on my desk at the moment either.

Todd Loushine:

Well, this is the podcast...

Jill James:

Are they coming?

Todd Loushine:

... so you got to pretend.

Jill James:

Okay.

Todd Loushine:

So what I did is I did a basic Google search and I found that fruits symbolize abundance associated with goddesses of fertility, plenty and harvest and flowers, symbolize emotions, ideas, and actions. So under those assumptions, let's celebrate an abundance of emotion and ideas as I take over the reigns now and interview you, our esteemed podcast and host, Jill James.

Jill James:

Yay. Is this where we put the applause track?

Todd Loushine:

Applause track. Yeah. Yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thank you, Todd. Thanks for the great welcome. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Todd Loushine:

So, Jill, how are you feeling today as you reflect on the past four years building and hosting this show?

Jill James:

Well, I really want to share some podcast stats, because after all it's our fourth anniversary episode and I thought it'd be fun and maybe encouraging for all of our listeners and guests to share some of the numbers that we've collected over the last four years of recording. So here we go. As of 2021, we know that there are over 2 million podcast shows worldwide and that's up from 550,000 podcasts just three years ago. And there are close to 50 million podcast episodes floating around in the ether. And so we wanted to know where does the Accidental Safety Pro fit into that equation? So here's what we found out. We found that by getting over 350 downloads within seven days of releasing an episode on average, we're in the top 10% of podcasts globally. Can you believe that? This little podcast is in the top 10% of podcasts globally.

Jill James:

And as of today, the show has over 184,000 downloads across 95 episodes with 1,942 downloads on average. So that kind of blows that 350 that you need to get in the top 10% out of the water. So those are the stats I wanted to share right now. And, Todd, you'll have to help me remember a little bit later. I want to share our top five performing episodes, because I think the number one spot is going to surprise everybody listening. So, again, just really want to thank everyone who's listening right now, who's been listening for the last four years, since the beginning, or maybe you just started, and all of our guests. Really appreciate the following and the engagement. And so, Todd, did you ask me how I'm feeling about it today?

Todd Loushine:

Yes.

Jill James:

Well, I'm feeling appreciative, for one, and I'm also humbled by the fact that all of these guests, 95 guests, have trusted their personal stories, their stories, their accomplishments with this podcast. And we get to be the keepers of all of those stories. I just think that's amazing. My highest value, and when I say highest value, it's because I actually did a little exercise to figure out what my highest value was. For anyone who follows sociologist Brené Brown, in her book, Dare to Lead, she takes people through this exercise to find out what's your highest value. So I did that exercise a bunch of years ago and my highest value is dignity, which makes total sense for someone who's dedicated their work life to worker justice. I want to see dignity for all human beings.

Jill James:

And so when I think about this podcast, I think about the fact that this is a space that we got to create to be able to capture all of those stories of people's collective work toward the dignity of all working human beings. And I just think that's amazing that so many people have told their stories, shared their stories. And so many of you have listened and hopefully it sprouted some sort of interest in you, maybe propelled you forward to do something in your career. And I just think that's amazing.

Jill James:

My friend, Mark Catlin, who's been on the show four times. He's got the number one spot, Mark Catlin, industrial hygienist. He is the health and safety, occupational health historian. Hands down. I don't know anybody who knows more about history of our field of work than Mark Catlin. And he had told me a number of years ago that capturing these stories of our collective work is so important. As a historian, he said these stories need to be captured. And so he's encouraged me and cheered me on over the years. And I'm so grateful to Mark and how he puts things in historical perspective.

Todd Loushine:

That was beautifully said, Jill. It's interesting. I don't know if you can hear my heart just beating. I'm just excited about what you're saying. And I know we're going to talk a little bit later about some episodes that if your listeners haven't heard, or maybe they should go back and listen to it again, but definitely listen to those episodes. So I know you, and I know you're a reflective thinker, and I know you dedicate a considerable amount of time thinking about your experiences and your perceptions, your interactions with people to better understand what you've learned and to put things into perspective. And if I have one recommendation for the people listening, you should do more reflective thinking and journaling. It's good for us all. Now, for me, this makes you the genuine artifact. When you say something, I know that a lot of thought and consideration went into it. So having said that, what were your initial thoughts and goals for the podcast and did those change or evolve for you?

Jill James:

Well, initially, in terms of like, how did the podcast start? It actually started with you Todd. And I know you said you don't necessarily remember this story, but it started with you, which is why I asked you back for this anniversary episode. So four years ago, we go back in the time machine here, Todd, you and a bunch of other health and safety professionals from around the country were in a focus group with me. And we were talking about what do we need in terms of our field of practice? And you said, "I think you should start a podcast." And I'm like, "What? What's a podcast?" I had no idea. I didn't know what a podcast is and now I listen to podcast literally every day. And so you explained what a podcast was and that you've been listening to them on your commute.

Jill James:

And I said, "Well, why would we want to do this?" And your answer at that time was "We don't get to talk to one another very often. So many of us in our work are solo operators. Not all of us, but many of us are solo operators." And at that time you articulated that we might go to conferences, attend conferences, but we don't necessarily get to spend time at those conferences like we might want to speaking with other people who do our work and really having an in-depth conversation, asking people about how they do what they do, so we can learn things from one another. And so you had suggested that maybe a podcast would be the right place for that. So picked up that idea, ran with it. My marketing team at the time said, "Okay, well, sure, let's start a podcast. But, Jill, you have to have a theme. You got to have a theme for this. What's your theme going to be?"

Jill James:

And I said, "Well, I don't know. Every time I meet somebody in this line of work, I always ask the same leading question, "How'd you get into it?" Because everyone's story is so winding. Their path is so winding. No one as a little kid, when you're asked, "Hey, why'd you get into safety says, "Well, I've known this since I was a little kid." There's one exception to that rule. However, that exception is our guest Chevon, who as a little kid knew she wanted to be a health and safety professional and it's because her mother is a professor of health and safety. And Todd, one of your coworkers as well. So Chevon and her mom have both been guests on this show and they are the outliers. I have not heard of anybody else who knew since they were a little kid that they wanted to be health and safety professionals. So what was the rest of your question?

Todd Loushine:

You kind of gave us the initial thoughts of where the podcast came from, but in addition to what you had already said as far as talking to people, how have those initial thoughts... And maybe it started out with not anything concrete, but I'm sure at some point it took some form and I assume it evolved, but maybe it hasn't. So I thought maybe the listeners would be interested that how have things change in your mind over the last four years?

Jill James:

And so with that basic premise of people sharing their stories and capturing their stories of how they got into the work, it became pretty obvious pretty fast when I do my pre-podcast chat. So every time I have a guest on the show, we have a conversation ahead of time. And I don't have people tell me their whole story when we are talking, because I want to be surprised and engaged as well. And I don't want things to be rehearsed, but then I always ask guests, "Is there something you really want to talk about? Is there something that's on your heart and mind right now that you really want to talk about, a story you want to share, or are you a topical expert in a particular area?" And people sometimes are a little bit shy, like, "Gosh, isn't this just a big ego display? I won't to talk about all these great things I've done." And I really invite people to step into that and to talk about it.

Jill James:

We've had people on the show who have been on the forefront of developing things that later became regulations. Or their life's work has really revolved around a particular topic. Or they've done phenomenal things. Or maybe they've had the opportunity to present their research at the United Nations, which was the case with our guest Dr. Amy orders a while ago. And so in those pre-podcast chats, I really started asking people, "Okay, so there's your story, but then what do you really want to talk about?" And that's been really fun. And so I guess that's how it's evolved.

Todd Loushine:

So I was about to ask you... I'm going to correct my English. I was going to say which was your favorite, but then I'm thinking that's like asking a parent, "Who's your favorite child?" Now I have an answer, but others may not. So what I want to ask is... I thought that was funny. What or who...

Jill James:

Okay.

Todd Loushine:

What or who were some of your most memorable interviews?

Jill James:

Well, you're right. I do really love all of the interviews that I've done. And I'm not just saying that because of what you just said, "Who's your favorite child." But in terms of maybe some of my most memorable, maybe let's put it that way. So when I think about who I was most nervous to interview, probably the first person I was really nervous to interview was Debbie Hersman. Debbie, at the time, was president and CEO of the National Safety Council. And prior to her taking on that job and role, she was the chair of the NTSB. And prior to me interviewing her, which I did live at the NSC Expo and Congress, I saw her on the TODAY Show being interviewed when she was chair of the NTSB. And I'm like, "What? She's going to be on my podcast. Last time she was interviewed, somebody from TODAY Show did it. Now she's going to be on my podcast," and we did it on camera.

Jill James:

And so somebody goes back and looks on YouTube, they can see me interviewing Debbie. And maybe you might be able to tell, I was a little bit nervous, because I'm like, "What am I going to ask this person? She's been on national television and now she's on my tiny little baby podcast." So that would be one of my most nervous interviews. But then that was really quickly followed up by another one that made me pretty nervous, which was Charlie Morecraft. And Charlie Morecraft, as some of the listeners here will remember Charlie's name, he tells the most impactful keynote I have ever heard in my 20-year career. And, Todd, I know you've heard Charlie speak as well.

Todd Loushine:

Yeah. I'd never miss it if I'm at a conference and he's speaking.

Jill James:

And so he's episode number 29 for anyone who's like, "Who's Charlie Morecraft. And so in terms of my great love in life is listening to stories and collecting stories. I'm a story collector. I'm a storyteller. And the first time I heard Charlie tell his story, which was, I don't know, probably more than 15 years ago, I was just hooked on this guy and his story and his vulnerability when he told the story. And so a couple of years ago, my friend, Eric Kloss, episode number 30, who at that time was working at the University of Notre Dame, contacted me and said, "Hey, Jill, we're doing this big celebration at Notre Dame for the things that we're doing with health and safety and I've invited Charlie Morecraft to come and keynote it. Do you want to come and celebrate with us?"

Jill James:

And I'm like, "What? Charlie's coming to your campus?Would you be on my podcast and do you think I could ask him to be on my podcast? Do you think he'd consider being on my podcast? Charlie's a pretty big deal." And I reached out to Charlie staff and they said yes. And so I literally packed up recording gear, flew it all to Indiana and I had the great opportunity to interview Charlie, who's just been like, "Wow," somebody that I look up to as a storyteller. And I couldn't believe I got to do that with him as his service dog laid under the table while we were recording. And we were hoping, "Is the dog going to bark? Service dogs don't bark. Duh." And the dog was quiet. Charlie and I had a fantastic conversation and he and I, and Eric got to hang out with one another on campus for an entire afternoon. And it was just so fun.

Jill James:

In terms of other people that I think of, David DeSario, who's a documentarian and talks about temporary worker justice and did the documentary called all in A Day's Work about the life and death of Day Davis. That was a really important episode for me to get right. And when I say get right, that just to me means get out of the way and let people tell their story and honor that story. And so that was a really important episode to me. Another episode I'm thinking of is with a woman named Katica Roy and she is the CEO and founder of a company called Pipeline Equity. And I had mentioned earlier that I'm a podcast junkie, now, since you introduced me to podcast, Todd. Thanks a lot for that. And Katica is guest on episode number 53.

Jill James:

And I was listening to a different podcast that I listened to called Her Money. And it's hosted by a woman named Jean Chatzky. She's very popular in terms of finance and women in finance and Katica was a guest on the show talking about equity and women and pay. And I thought, "Oh, my gosh, her story was so phenomenal." I'm like, "Can I ask her to be on my show? Would she even say yes?" Because what I really wanted to talk about with her was women in STEM and what do we know about equity in STEM? Because our field of work, it's STEM. It's science, technology, engineering, and math. Absolutely. It sits in that. And so I reached out to her, crossed my fingers and thought, "Can I get somebody like that on my show to talk about equity in STEM and encourage women in our field?" And she said yes. And that was really a great honor.

Jill James:

Having Chip Hughes on the show, Chip was the long, long time director of the NIEHS, National Institute of Environmental Health and Sciences, which is part of the NIH. And honoring Chip's work and listening to his story was really important to me. I got to know Chip a number of years ago, he's episode number 54. And his work with NIEHS and the work of the people that work at the NIEHS in the worker training program is to activate and come together to curate training for first responders in times of national crisis. And Chip had been doing that work for, I think it was something like 30 years and so national crisis. So it's when there's an oil spill, Hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the Exxon Valdez, the pandemic. Things that happen where people have to respond and we need workers to stay safe. That's the effort that Chip led with NIEHS.

Jill James:

And his work in worker justice and his stories around it for the decades and decades that he did the work, I just really wanted to make space for him to be able to tell his story and honor all of that work. And so that was super important to me. And then I mentioned Mark Catlin earlier, who, again, a historian. And so when there's an opportunity to put things in perspective in terms of place and time, it's Mark that I reach out to. When OSHA was talking about doing an emergency temporary standard, I'm like, "Mark, what's the precedence for this? Can you come on the show and talk about it." Or it's time to honor and celebrate the work of people who came long before OSHA was ever around, people like Alice Hamilton and who were those leaders, who were the people that were doing this work and research before health and safety was even a thing, occupational health wasn't in the mainstream conversation. So invite Mark to come in and put things into place and time.

Jill James:

And so, again, I love all of my guests, but some of those really leave a mark on me.

Todd Loushine:

That's great, Jill. And I do hope that we can find a way to list all these with links to make the listeners have the ability to go through and list to them at their leisure. The next set of questions. And as you were speaking, my mind is racing.

Jill James:

Well, ask what you want. The microphone is yours. Oh, gosh, did I just say that?

Todd Loushine:

The next area has to do with change. Change is inevitable. Whether you're talking time pressure, the flow of water, wind, things change. And so I want to go back in time with you. So let's get in the DeLorean with Doc Brown and go back to when you and I had met. And this was 28 years ago, I think we clocked at. You had just left the University of Minnesota Duluth with your master's degree. I had recently joined Minnesota OSHA from my undergraduate degree in chemical engineering. I do remember you were already very wise. You could tell you had your mindset, you knew what you're going to do. I was arrogant and immature. I was 23 years old and I know I spoke off color and I don't know how [inaudible 00:24:01]-

Jill James:

I was also 23 years old, by the way.

Todd Loushine:

Yeah. But I was the naughty child. And we had a lot of fun though. And you and I we've kept in contact, so fast forward to today. Look, somehow I got to where I am. I don't know if I've just fooled people this long, but you, on the other hand. The podcast is just one small aspect of your career in your achievements. It really is. And I don't think people know you as well as I bet they want to. You're a visionary, you're spiritual. So before we really get into too much of the kissy, huggy stuff, I'm interested, and I think your listeners are interested too, what does the future look like for you and your podcast? Do you have plans to change or evolve? Or are you going to stay the course?

Jill James:

Well, I'm going to get back in the DeLorean with you for just a second, before I answer that question. You said that I was pretty serious and set when we met back when we were both 23 years old, 28, some years ago. Todd, I think that's only because when I got the job with OSHA, I was stuck in a remote location in the Northwest corner of Minnesota with the responsibility for inspecting in 11 counties along the Canadian border and the North Dakota border with a car that broke down on me a lot, all by myself with a badge. And so the serious part, just there wasn't much of a choice. I had to figure it out. It was sink or swim. 23 years old with a badge in a broken-down state vehicle. Anyway. So probably need 121 gigawatts of power to get myself out of that situation.

Jill James:

Anyway, so plans for the future with the podcast. That's something we really want to ask the listeners. So our goal with that, in terms of asking the listeners, is expect to see a survey in the show notes of this episode, where we're going to ask some of those questions. And I really want to hear from listeners. I occasionally get to hear from some of you and I really love it when you reach out and send a note. Often they come through LinkedIn. People will send a note about maybe an episode they've heard or an idea for a guest and I really appreciate that. So in terms of the future, one idea is to ask all of you. I'm interested to hear from you. And if you just want to send me an email, you can do that too. [email protected]. You can send me an email. I'd be perfectly okay with hearing your ideas for that and I'd welcome them. So thanks in advance for that.

Jill James:

And then my thoughts initially on that are, if you've been listening for a long time and you've seen the progression over the four years, you've noticed that I'm asking more and more guests who have topical expertise in certain areas to come on. And so I always want to honor people's stories and how they got into the work, but I've also been really tapping people who have a particular niche that they can talk about. So for example, you've heard a guest recently speak about psychological safety. You've heard another guest talk about diversity, equity and inclusion and how it impacts our professional practice. There have been guests who are experts on things like ammonia or lead, really digging into topics like that. And so I think in terms of future, I'd like to be able to find people who are topical experts on things. And I'll be curious to know if the survey results agree with that kind of thing, or if we take another direction. Do you have suggestions?

Todd Loushine:

Hey, this is your world. I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

Jill James:

In terms of more topical things, other topics that I want to develop in the future, pay attention and if you're interested in ES and G, environmental, social and governance, that's a thing that's really starting to take off. And we as health and safety professionals have responsibility in those areas too. So you can look forward to some episodes on that. I've been looking for some people to speak on that subject specifically as well.

Todd Loushine:

So your podcast was well established two years prior to the pandemic. And you know as well as I do when the pandemic hit podcasts sprang out of the ground everywhere. And you and I had talked about it. We saw a lot of flashes in the pan over the last couple years. And we've also seen maybe some podcasters, I'm not going to name anybody, but they may have done or said things as a stunt to try to get more attention, but they lacked the substance, so they disappear. Now I hate to ask you this, but I think your listeners may want to know, would you mind sharing how you select your guests? Any interesting or odd ways you either connect with people or places you've gone to interview people?

Jill James:

Sure, sure. You had mentioned the pandemic and I guess shout out to all the special episodes we did in 2020 and 2021 that were very focused on the pandemic. We had 13 pandemic-focused podcast during that time, and that was with great intentionality. I suspected, and it's been confirmed, that those of us in this field were in over our heads. And being asked to do so many things we've never done before. Invited to tables, maybe we've never been before. And I really thought about how can I bring information to the listeners that might help them to be able to continue moving forward with their jobs during that time. And so with great intentionality and so much appreciation for the guests that came on during that time to share their wisdom, to share resources with so many people, really appreciate that.

Jill James:

In terms of how do I find guests, couple of different ways. When we first got started, Todd, you gave me names of people you thought would be good to share stories. And thank you for that. I appreciate that. I pay attention to LinkedIn. And so when I say I pay attention to LinkedIn, it means I'm reading what people are talking about. Things that they're writing. Things that just resonate with me. And if someone's written something that I thought was particularly insightful, I'll simply reach out to them and say, "I just read something you wrote. Would you mind having a conversation with me? Coming on the podcast and talking about that?" So that's one way. I attend conferences, virtual conferences in the last two years, and I do presentations as part of my role with HSI.

Jill James:

And sometimes I have the great opportunity to co-present with someone or listen to someone at a conference. And they may some say something that just really spark something in me. I'm like, "Gosh, they've got something to talk about. They've got a story here." And so I'll reach out to people for that reason. So my last few guests Sabina and Tiffany, we had co-presented at a conference together. And so I reached out to them for that reason. And then sometimes I'm just thinking about a topic. Gosh. After George Floyd, I was really thinking about police officers a lot and their work. The good, the bad and the ugly of it. And that's part of workplace health and safety as well. And so I found someone who specializes in the study of their work and all the dimensions and complexity of that and found a guest to come on and talk about that.

Jill James:

A guest that I have coming up soon is a man named John Dony, who's a thought leader with the National Safety Council. And he and I were recently presenting at a virtual conference and he said a sentence that just grabbed me. And it grabbed me so hard, I wrote it down, word for word. I reached out to him and I said, "John, you just said this thing. You've got me. Can you come on the podcast and talk about it?" And so John will be a guest coming soon. And so those are some of the ways. I think you asked me places that I've gone to interview. I told you about my trip to University of Notre Dame to be able to interview Charlie and Eric Kloss. Taken the podcast on the road twice. Well, two other times in addition to Notre Dame. Both times have been to the NSC Congress and Expo in 2018 and 2019, and recorded live from the expo floor there, which also was, I had mentioned Debbie Herman earlier as one of the people that I was nervous to interview.

Jill James:

The other person, I didn't mention this before, but when we, when I was at the NSC conference, Dr. Scott Geller was one of my guests, as well as his daughter, Dr. Krista Geller. And so when I interviewed Dr. Geller, that was bananas. Live on the conference floor. We're recording it via camera and audio. And there's this group of people that were standing around as I was interviewing Dr. Geller, whispering, "Was that Dr. Geller? Was that Dr. Geller?" He's a legend. Dr. Geller is a legend and there's this group of people that's gathering around and I'm like, "Holy buckets. I'm sitting at the foot of a sage here, talking." That was a really interesting interview too. And Dr. Geller's been nice enough to come back on the show more than once. But in terms of interesting places of taken the show NSC and Notre Dame, for sure.

Todd Loushine:

And I agree with what you said about Dr. Geller and his daughter. He was one of the first keynote I ever heard at a conference and it wanted me to become an academic. I had told him that and he smiled, but between Dr. Geller and Dan Miller. Those two, not directly, but just by hearing them talk really wanted me to go pursue advanced degrees. So enough about me.

Jill James:

No, those are good things. And just to talk about Dr. Geller for just a moment more for anyone who doesn't... Maybe you just start starting out in your career and you're like, "Dr. Scott Geller, who is that?" Dr. Geller, professor at Virginia Tech for a very long time has written many, many books that I'm not even going to try to name any of them. But if you've ever used or heard the term behavior-based safety, Dr. Geller coined it. And what I learned on the podcast episode that he did with me at the National Safety Council is he does not use those terms anymore. He does not say that word, because he doesn't like what happened to it after he wrote about it. The whole practice of behavior-based safety, in his opinion, got bastardized. And he doesn't talk about it anymore.

Todd Loushine:

Right.

Jill James:

Anyway.

Todd Loushine:

I think maybe in a future episode, maybe you could pontificate on other podcasts that others could listen to, but I don't want to deviate from the focus on yours. And in that thought though, what if somebody's listening to you for the very first time? So whatever episode it is, it's the first time they listen to it, they've missed 90 plus before. I feel like this is like the re rewind episode on Seinfeld. You see all the parts of the ones you got to go back and watch them. But if you could, you don't have to go crazy here, but just if you could grab just a handful of episodes that you'd want someone who's brand new to this podcast to listen to, what would they be?

Jill James:

It seems like this would be a good time to share those top five performers that I talked about in the beginning based on our statistics. So let's do a count up from number five to the one that has the most downloads. So in the number five spot is episode number 70, and its title is From firefighting to ammonia and my guest was Gary Smith. And if you have anything to do with ammonia in your job right now, that would be the episode to go back and listen to. Gary's definitely a historian from the way back and on the cutting edge of the laws that were created before they were created. In the number four spot is... Right before episode number 70 is episode number 69. It's called Safety from every perspective. And my guest was Paul Penn. And Paul has everything to say about HAZWOPER before HAZWOPER was a thing. And his work that he did when that law was passed and how instrumental he was on that, among lots of other things and interesting stories that Paul had to tell.

Jill James:

In the number three spot with 3,687 downloads is episode number 75. And it's titled Finding the Best Way to Protect Your Workers. And my guess there was Dr. Rachel Jones from the University of Utah School of Medicine. And that was one of the COVID episodes, where Dr. Jones is really talking a lot about, well, lots of ways to protect your workers and it was just a fascinating episode. In the number two spot is episode number 50, with 5,383 downloads. That was the very first episode I did around COVID 19. And that title is What Employers Need to Know About Coronavirus. And that was with Deborah Roy and Deborah was president elect for ASSP at that time. And she had really worked on a plan for airborne hazards in a job that she had previously had. So she actually had essentially a playbook for people and she talked about it on that episode.

Jill James:

And then in the number one spot, this is where we need the drum roll. In the number one spot is episode number 78, with 6,185 downloads. So remember the average for us is, what did I say earlier, close to 1,900, something like that. So 6,185 downloads. The title of that episode is Do I Want to Stay in Safety?with my guest Erin. And I think that's just surprising and also amazing. Do I Want to Stay in Safety? So those are the top five of all time, so far. And then I guess I just want to give a shout out to anyone who's listening, who's maybe just starting in their career and you want to hear from someone who's young in the profession, who's just getting going and the things that they're doing.

Jill James:

Well, so many young favorite professionals, but I'm thinking about out a guest named Yodit, who is in California. Her episode is number 64. Ashley with the iron workers, she's episode number 65. Eric, number 72. He is working with the NIEHS, which I mentioned Chip Hughes earlier. Eric, super interesting person. And Carolina at episode number nine. Carolina is the health and safety professional at Pixar. And these four young professionals, just in awe, in awe of their work.

Todd Loushine:

Thank you for that. And I hope people do check that out. And if you are listening and either you're thinking about going into safety or you're currently a safety student, as a professor, I would recommend that you search out on YouTube the Triangle Shirtwaist fire documentary created by Frontline. It is emotional. It is visceral. And what I took away from it was the inside look at what these women were going through in their lives prior to this absolute disaster, for sure, but really is the birth of the safety movement in America. So with that, Jill?

Jill James:

Absolutely. You can't help yourself, Professor Loushine.

Todd Loushine:

I know I can't.

Jill James:

These are the things you have to talk about and the Triangle Shirtwaist fire, that's absolutely a must for anyone in our profession to pay attention to.

Todd Loushine:

The first thing you need if you're going to go into this profession is passion. And if you watch that and it doesn't affect you... Yeah, go ahead. Follow Erin. Because I'd also had talked to Erin about it. And anybody who comes to talk to me about safety, I am brutally honest about what I think and really try to get down to the bras tacks of what they want to do with their careers. Okay. Enough about me. Jill, I love your show for two main reasons. First, I mentioned it earlier, it's authentic, because you're authentic and your guests are sharing authentic stories. Second is that you have a very diverse community of guests. You've named world experts and things all the way down to people who have experienced a story or are just getting into it. And that's amazing.

Todd Loushine:

Some stories and experiences are unique, others are shared and very common. I like to hear about the wide range of paths people take into this profession, as I know you do too. And I think that's what brings so many safety professionals from all different backgrounds back to listen time and time again. But you also attract non-safety people too. To me, that puts you ahead of the curve for diversity, equity and inclusion, which is a big thing right now that we're trying to understand and insert, or not insert, but meld into the things we do. Now I know this is a passion of yours, so would you share your emphasis on being diverse, equitable, and inclusive for the safety profession?

Jill James:

Thanks for asking this question. It's true. Our guests represent various backgrounds, education, training, tenure, and I do include non-safety people. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of a gender economist I had on the show, a worker's compensation expert, a cognitive scientist, a diversity, equity, inclusion expert, a medical sociologist, and an occupational health researcher, as well as an organizational psychologist, to name a few. When we conceived of this podcast, I set specific goals for myself regarding representation. Minimally regarding genders, I wanted an equal number of women and men's voices at the podcast table. My recent guest Sabina cited a statistic that women only make up 19% of our professional practice, a number which is really disappointing and actually surprised me. I thought that after being in this profession for 28 years now, I figured it just had to be higher. And yet it's not. And I guess maybe that's why I asked a gender economist on the show to talk about women in STEM and how we might encourage more women to join us in this field of work.

Jill James:

But to date, I'm happy to report I've had 44 female guests and 43 male guests, a number that I actually track and I hope will include other genders as the podcast continues. Another goal that I set was to ensure that I was paying attention to my affinity bias as a white woman and ensure I was inviting minority groups to the podcast table. And speaking of affinity bias, the other goal I set was to ensure our guests represented all 50 states and territories in the United States. When we first got started, I noticed many of my guests were coming from the Upper Midwest in Minnesota and Wisconsin, where you and I are from, another one of my affinity biases. So I printed a map of the United States and I started coloring in the states so I could see who is missing. I don't have all the states and territories represented yet, but I'm working on it.

Jill James:

And as the years have gone on, I'm happy to report I've had guests from outside the United States, including guests from Australia, Canada, and Tanzania, something I hope to continue as we add depth and richness of voice and story and lived experience.

Todd Loushine:

And, Jill, you Wade just came from a couple-day meeting and he was face-to-face. And I also want the listeners to know that... I know we all were forced to make drastic changes and adapt quickly because of the pandemic. And it's going to take a little bit longer, I think, to adjust back. But the in-person meetings right now are wonderful. And I was supposed to cover this whole agenda. I just let people talk. And I sat back and listened. And I just feel like that's what you're bringing to people. They don't have to go anywhere to listen, but they can listen to the people on your podcast and reach out to you, personally. And I think that's wonderful. So looking at the clock, we are almost out of time, unfortunately. This has truly been enlightening experience for me, Jill. And hopefully for all the listeners too. And I have a couple non-soft ball questions for you, my friend.

Jill James:

Oh, great.

Todd Loushine:

So I've got two. I'll read them. I'll read the first one. I'll let you answer it. Then we'll get to the second one. And that is, what are your current concerns or worries about the safety profession?

Jill James:

Well, based on the fact that our number one performing episode is titled, Do I Want to Stay in Safety? That's my biggest concern right now. Burnout. Burnout for our profession, because of the last couple of years and people not practicing resiliency. That's my biggest concern. And I hope for anyone who's listening to this now, you may have noticed I've done a couple of episodes recently on burnout. And I've also had a lot of guests talk about resiliency and how they practice it in their profession, and I hope that it's helping some of you as a reminder of how really important that is. As a profession, we're wired to take care of human beings. Worker justice, that's our thing. We don't want to see any harm come to the human beings that are part of our charge. But we often don't turn that back on ourselves. And I think it's so important to do that, especially right now. So that's my biggest concern. I want to see people really taking care of themselves.

Todd Loushine:

And that's a great point. I opened this morning's meeting with asking all the members to just share how you're feeling.

Jill James:

And this is at ASSP, right?

Todd Loushine:

This is at a ASSP meeting, yeah a regional meeting. And we have a couple people on the executive board that maybe some of the things started before the pandemic, but now they're really into mental health and suicide prevention in the construction industry. But the construction industry, isn't unique from people who have served in the military. Right now, adolescent suicides are skyrocketing. We really need to start looking out for each other. And just like in safety, when we started talking about off-the-job safety, I think we need to consider just life mental health and not just work mental health.

Jill James:

That's right.

Todd Loushine:

We really need to... If someone looks down, just go, "Oh, they'll figure it out by themselves." No, we got to go talk to them. A hand on the shoulder, a "Hey, how are you doing?" You don't know what that can do for someone who has been walking around with a dark cloud over their head for a couple days. So please, everybody. Maybe that would be a good future episode. I could give you some names of some people that have been doing this for a while. And at least people would know what resources are available and that they are not alone. Like my friend Dr. DJ Moran said that depression and mental health issues are as common as the common cold, but we don't talk about it.

Jill James:

That's right. That's right. Good time to remind people that when you're talking about mental health, Todd, and especially at times where it can maybe get a little scary and you don't know what to do or how to act or feel like "This wasn't part of my training," there is training that you can take called Mental Health First Aid. Literally you can Google that term, Mental Health First Aid, and the association NAMI does training. Just like you get CPR and first aid training, you can get Mental Health First Aid training. I've had it, personally. I have used it numbers of times. And it was really a game changer for me in terms of knowing what to do. It gives you some power of knowing how to approach someone, what to say. You get a tool, so you know what to say and what to do. So I would recommend taking that course to anyone.

Todd Loushine:

So the next question is the polar opposite.

Jill James:

The polar opposite? Okay.

Todd Loushine:

I've got good news and bad news. The bad news first. Next question. What do you see as signs of hope and success for the safety profession?

Jill James:

And so we've talked about the hard parts of the pandemic and how things have been laid bare and all of the difficult things, but out of the ashes, like the Phoenix, rises some good things. And so this time that we've been through together and that we're continuing right now, what I am seeing and what I am hearing from our profession is the good thing the pandemic has done for us is this. Pandemic happens. It's 2020. Employers across the globe are like, "What do we do? How are we going to keep the wheels on this bus in terms of keeping our business operational and going, keeping our employees healthy and safe, what are we going to do?" And you know how every time we go to a conference, every time we pick up a journal article, we are always going to see the what? How to get management buy-in.

Jill James:

We all know this. People write about it constantly. 2020 happens. Our leaders, our management structures are like, "Hey, let's go tap that safety person on the shoulder. They must know what to do." And so what I'm hearing from our profession is that for sometimes the first time in their career, they got invited to tables where they've never been before. It might be leadership tables. It might be working closely with their HR department. It might be getting to know their operations person. I even heard someone say the other week that they got to work with their CFO in their company during the pandemic and said, "I had no idea what CFOs even did and I have such a great appreciation for them."

Jill James:

But the pandemic opened doors for us, got us seats at tables where we've never been before and what I'm hearing from our profession is we're not going back. We've got a seat at the table. People get what our job is now because we got to help and we got to build coalitions, alliances with our counterparts across different functional work groups in our companies. And it's going well. And we like it. And so I think from that whole how to get management buy-in, I think the pandemic moved that forward for our profession. And I think that's hopeful and beautiful in all of the mess and mire that has been the last couple of years.

Todd Loushine:

And just one more shout out just to say we've kind of gotten a little bit comfortable with moving to the virtual meetings. I just want to let everybody know, please, please, please, if it's safe, go back to the face-to-face. As an instructor, professor, there has been missed opportunities to teach students things beyond the curriculum. And I feel like when we just sign on to something, our mind is somewhere else or focus somewhere else. The face-to-face, it's listen to other people tell stories. See, that's where I get all the learning. That's where I get all my enjoyment when I go to conferences and all that other stuff is the side conversations. The questions that people ask, the being able to actually meet the person versus just listen to their presentation. So that's just the last thing. So, Jill, we are at the end and I want to give you back your podcast, not too damaged. I think I get my deposit back.

Jill James:

I'll give you deposit back.

Todd Loushine:

So I would just ask you to please go ahead and just say whatever you want to close out this fourth anniversary episode.

Jill James:

Oh, well, thank you, Todd. And thank for being host today. You did a great job and it's really weird to be on the other side of the microphone. I can tell you that, for sure, for our listeners. Gosh, thank you so much. Four years for a podcast is a big deal. And the fact that we're in the top 10% is huge. So thanks for coming back time and again, time and again. Thanks for everyone who's been a guest and willing to come back. Some of you have been guests more than once. Thanks to everyone who has suggested a guest, including if it's yourself. I'm not wanting to stop this anytime soon. I think we have so much more to share with one another. And so, again, I guess a reminder to take that survey. If you want to reach out to me personally and share any ideas that you might have or just reflections on the podcast itself, as we're celebrating, you can certainly send me an email, [email protected]. And, Todd, thanks again for being with me today.

Todd Loushine:

Thank you so much, Jill.

Jill James:

And thank you all for spending your time listening for the past four years and today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good, making sure your workers, including your temporary workers, make it home safe every day. If you aren't subscribed and you want to hear past and future episodes, like all the ones that I talked about today, you can subscribe on iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player that you'd like. And you can also find all the shows with their transcripts at hsi.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals. Special thanks to NAI our podcast producer Naeem Jeraisi. And then til next time, thanks for listening.