Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode is recorded May 15th, 2023. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer. And by now, you may have noticed the logo for our podcast has changed. After five years of the same logo, my team of creatives decided it was time to birth a new logo. So goodbye to the dark, gray and yellow. And hello to HSI's Light Blue Navy and fuchsia. And also, hello today to my guest, Jane Davies. Jane is a loss prevention consultant at the Arizona Department of Administration and joins us today from the Greater Phoenix, Arizona area. Welcome to this show, Jane.

Jane Davies:

Oh, thank you so much, Jill. It's a little surreal for me. I've been listening to the podcast for so long. I have to continue to remind myself, "Jill is actually speaking to me." How exciting. I'm very excited. Thank you for having me.

Jill James:

Well, you're welcome. And thank you for being an avid listener to the podcast all these years, and being the person who gets to help me birth the new logo. So that's pretty awesome. That's pretty awesome.

Jane Davies:

Absolutely.

Jill James:

So, Jane, your story, as I am told, your EHS story, your EHS journey. I have a feeling it probably begins before this, but I've heard you like to say that you found this job at a dog park. So what kind of dog park, what kind of dog did you have? How did this all go down?

Jane Davies:

Oh, yes. That is one of my favorite stories. I am the epitome of accidental safety pro, which is what kind of drew me to the podcast in the first place. Back in the great recession, 2007, '08, '09, I was working for a local general contractor and not in a safety position. We did have some safety meetings and things like that, but I was definitely working on the administrative side. And when the recession happened, I got laid off. As did-

Jill James:

So many

Jane Davies:

... tons of other people. Yes. So I was working diligently, sending out resumes, something to the tune of three a day for five days a week for months. And my husband and I, we had just moved into a house, I think the year before. We had bought a house. And there was a nearby dog park that we had at the time, a Rhodesian Ridgeback who was really quirky, but really enjoyed the dog park. And my husband would go every day, and I made the decision one day, I'm just go down there with him and hang out with the other poor, unemployed people at the dog park because that's what you do in the middle of the day when you don't have a job. And there was a girl there, a very fairly young girl in her early, early twenties, and I think they called her the dog park secretary. And she walked in and announced to everyone within hearing distance that, "Oh, thank God I found a job. I can finally get away from all of those cranky old people." And my response was, "Well, if you're not using the job that you currently have, can I have it? Because I kind of need a job." That was awesome.

Jill James:

So she said, "Cranky old people," and your ears perked up, or was it-

Jane Davies:

Well, it was-

Jill James:

[inaudible 00:03:56].

Jane Davies:

... "I found another job and I'm going somewhere else." So that was kind of how the conversation started. And it was like, "Well, what do you do?" And she said she worked for the state. She actually was a contract employee, a temp employee, but she was working with the risk management group and she was doing some things, and she was nice enough to actually take my resume in. And they called me in and I did an interview with them and they hired me through a contract, but then they hired me out of the contract a couple of months later.

Jill James:

That's fantastic. I've gotten jobs in creative ways, but never like, "Hey, I'm leaving my job." And you're like, "my hand is raised, insert me here."

Jane Davies:

Right. Yeah. Well, if you're not going to use the one you got, and like I said, and it really was, I sent out no less than three resumes every day for five days for, it was three or four months. And you get panicked after so long, especially during the recession, there were people with master's degrees, couldn't get anything.

Jill James:

Yeah. And plus you need income, insurance, all the things that keep you up at night.

Jane Davies:

Yeah. Yeah. So that was quirkily, how that happened. And-

Jill James:

So what... Go ahead.

Jane Davies:

Yeah, so they were nice enough, they brought me in as basically an administrative assistant. And then I worked in that position for a few months, then transitioned to be the executive assistant to the risk manager for the state. And

Jill James:

Did you have any idea what that meant?

Jane Davies:

Well, I had from my previous employment as I worked for a land developer, and that was fabulous. And I got to do a little, I work here in the greater Phoenix area, and I also worked in Hawaii for two years. They moved me over to Hawaii for a couple of years. So the Hawaiian sabbatical wasn't a bad either.

Jill James:

Not a bad gig if you can afford to live there. Oh my gosh. I'm just smelling plumeria as you say that right now. Okay.

Jane Davies:

Right, right. Yeah. And I have plumeria trees outside of my house right now. Oh man.

Jill James:

Yeah, you can grow them in pots, Jill.

Jane Davies:

Okay. Probably not in Minnesota but okay. So I had some experience with contracts and insurance, and from the construction side, some safety components there's dust control issues that the group that I worked for with the general contractor had environmental responsibilities for dust control on the projects. So I had experience there, and it just seemed like it was a pretty good fit. And so I worked my way out of that into handling a project for, not medical surveillance, but post offer physicals. So pre pre-hire physicals, there had to be an offer extended. So they gave me that project to outsource that to a vendor and manage that. And that went well, and that worked into, "Hey, we're going to make you a loss prevention consultant." So what that means is that I work on a team of folks and we support the different state agencies and their safety programs. They are the true owners of the programs. We are their support mechanism or the Department of administration. That's what we do or support the other state agencies.

Jill James:

Sure. With resources, training, contracts with... What does support look like in those kind of roles for people who aren't familiar with state government?

Jane Davies:

Well, support, from our perspective is yes, we do provide some training. There's a procurement department, so we review contracts for insurance and we handle all of the claims against the state.

Jill James:

Got it.

Jane Davies:

So that's the division that we work in. They handle the workers' compensation claims, the property and liability claims, general liability claims. That's kind of expanded into cyber now, that's commingled with some other divisions, but it's a hugely diverse, and especially if you enjoy diversity in a job, you get all the diversity that you could possibly want here.

Jill James:

Well, that's right. Because a state entity, various state entities support well, every part of our community existence. And so-

Jane Davies:

Correct.

Jill James:

... varied levels of hazards and varied levels of people whose lives you impact.

Jane Davies:

Correct. Yes. So it helps having someone... I always advocate to have, even when I'm training OSHA, I always advocate, "Bring somebody in from the outside and let them look around." just so you have a different set of eyes on things. The diversity at the state is extremely wide from will have the Department of Game and Fish, and they do interact with the federal government. And there are some counties that are involved, but you'll have the Department of Game and Fish. You'll have the Department of Child Safety. You may have the Department of Veterans Services, department of Agriculture, Gaming, which I think the Department of Gaming covers boxing, horse racing, and any of the casino entities.

Jill James:

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Jane Davies:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Wow. That is diverse.

Jane Davies:

There is a lot of diversity, but I find it really energizing. I'm a huge consumer of information, like the podcast, for example. So I really enjoyed the diversity and the amount of information that is available that you can learn from.

Jill James:

Yeah, you're a lifelong learner.

Jane Davies:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jill James:

Yeah. So Jane, you've made your way from dog park to admin assistant to executive assistant and working for the state... Well, oh yeah. The post offer physicals into the state safety program. How were you picking up the practice of EHS? You just described yourself as a lifelong learner. How were you teaching yourself along the way? Or was the state partnering with you on that, or how did that piece work?

Jane Davies:

It to a degree, yes. They're very supportive of education. And a good team helps also. I did, when I was between the executive assistant position, I think, and the position of the project coordinator, which did the post offer physical component, one of my coworkers, who is a brilliant lady that worked with that, and she has her associate in risk management, associate in claims, and she was teaching a course through the institutes, I believe, for associate in claims. And she said, "I think you should take this class."

Jill James:

Okay.

Jane Davies:

That's what I said. "Okay."

Jill James:

Okay. Okay. All right.

Jane Davies:

Sure. Sign me up. So I took it, and I did really well in it. It was something that she was providing for the state employees because she was the instructor and I think they had to pay for the materials. So she did provide that for a lot of the coworkers. And it's funny how some of the people really embraced it, some of the people did not. They just couldn't manage the schedule or things like that. So I did really well, and I got my associate in claims, and then also went on after two or three years, that lady had left state service at that point, but the risk management group that I worked for decided they would offer the associate and risk management program also. So I took that and I also obtained my associate in risk management. And those courses really also open your eyes to the true risks that are out. There are things that you don't realize are out there until you get involved in the insurance side. Things like the dram rules for liquor licenses and owning a bar and the Garage Keepers coverage for vehicles that you may be, let's say impounding or things like that. There is just such a myriad of different risks and exposures that are out there. And I think that that also helps to open your eyes to the risk side and how it interfaces with the safety components.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm yeah. And the safety components. I'm guessing the more you moved around, the more you met people, the more that you were in service to the other agencies. Your eyes were open to various different types of risks. And I believe you have a story about how asbestos might have been a little intimidating.

Jane Davies:

Yes.

Jill James:

As it is.

Jane Davies:

Yes, yes. When they first brought me in, and I am really grateful to the state for giving me this opportunity, but when they brought me in as a loss prevention consultant, and you work with other safety professionals in the agencies, and I had a particular agency, the person that I was interfacing with was an asbestos expert, and that was his area of expertise. And if I had to speak to this person about asbestos, I would just burst into tears in my boss's office because I was asbestos illiterate. And it frightened me terribly. And yeah, my boss will tell you, he would talk me off a ledge. And my perspective was, there's nothing that I can bring to this conversation that this person that I'm speaking to does not already know or have. But there's information out there. What I've learned over the years, and my boss will be so happy to hear this, is that there's always something that you can bring to the table. And don't think because you are not an expert in asbestos, that you don't have the skills to gain that knowledge and make yourself valuable to the people that you're helping.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's right.

Jane Davies:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jill James:

That's right. And so how did you start... Well, I guess what did you become aware of? You're crying in your boss's office, and I'm sorry. Asbestos is super complex. It absolutely is. As you mentioned dust earlier, same thing, really complicated. All these health hazards are complicated. How did you start teaching yourself, or what did you learn was the value that you could bring? I'm thinking about our listeners who might be either young in their careers or just switched to a different place of employment where it's a whole new band of hazards that they never knew existed or don't know very much about. And they're like, "Holy crap, people's lives are on the line here. The light switch turned on, and now I'm responsible. How do I bring value?" So what did you learn about yourself?

Jane Davies:

Yeah, well thank you. That's a great question. What I did learn is that listening is key. If you're a good listener, in the example that I gave you, the person that I was interfacing with that was, he came from the military. He was the asbestos expert for that particular agency. But if you listen, first of all, so he's the expert, so he's got all the experience and he's going to give you that experience because people like to, especially some of the old experts that have all of the institutional knowledge, they want to impart that to other people.

Jill James:

For sure.

Jane Davies:

So if you're a good listener and you ask good questions, oftentimes those people that you are engaging with or interacting with will walk themselves to the solution that they're seeking. And I learned that asbestos is not particularly as scary as I made it out to be. If you know where it is, leave it alone, make sure everybody else leaves it alone. And if you-

Jill James:

Dry and crumbly bad.

Jane Davies:

That's right.

Jill James:

Intact not bad.

Jane Davies:

And if you can't leave it alone, you work with a expert, a vendor that can deal with it appropriately. And that's pretty much it. And it has become less scary. But my boss at the time who I was like having a panic attack going, "There's nothing I can do. I can't say anything to this person. What could I possibly bring in?" He was very good about teaching also. So he would say, "Oh, here's our asbestos program and I think we need to rewrite it. So why don't you do that?"

Jill James:

[inaudible 00:20:11]? Yeah. Yeah, that was kind of sneaky.

Jane Davies:

Look at here. So that also helps. So as you delve into the programs, go out and look at programs. And I've perused several now through the universities. And the universities are also our customers. So along with the state agencies, I forgot to throw the universities in there, also. University of Arizona, Arizona State University, Northern Arizona University, they all have super robust programs and experts. So I would go out and look at their programs. Fortunately, we have the internet now, so there are tons and tons of information online that you can look through. I know I have a coworker who is just enamored with the website structure for the Montana State Compensation Fund. I think she's like, "I really like-"

Jill James:

That's a good tip. Okay.

Jane Davies:

"I really like the structure of this website. How do I get my website to look like that?" So all of these components work together, but asbestos, I'm much more comfortable with it now. I am still not an expert. And the other thing that I realized is I don't have to be an expert because the experts are out there.

Jill James:

Right, right. And so I believe a word that you used with me, a phrase that you used with when we were talking before the recording is "I know a guy," so what does that mean to you that we can apply to our listeners?

Jane Davies:

Well, and I do want to bring attention to, I work on a team of six, a really dynamic team, and that is also what makes our particular loss prevention piece works so well. I am the data nerd on the team. I would be perfectly happy to live in Excel spreadsheets for the rest of my life.

Jill James:

God bless you.

Jane Davies:

I don't want anything to do with a Word document. I have a team member who is the marketing, her strength is marketing. She does all of our editing. She has a human resource background. I think she had a degree in human resources. I have a team member who, he came from the radiation regulatory agency at the state. He has that expertise. I have one team member who is a former firefighter and also a former correctional officer. So he has that expertise. I have a team member who has a degree in, I believe it's biology, and I have a manager who has a degree in environmental resource management.

Jill James:

What a great team.

Jane Davies:

Right? And we really enjoy each other too, which helps. But the combination of all of those entities. So depending on what the hazard is that comes about, there is somebody on the team. It may not be me, but there is someone on the team who has experience, may have had some interaction with something similar to that in either their day-to-day duties or in a past job. And if they don't, they have the network that can find that. So if one of my state agency customers comes to me and asks a question that I can't answer, it's like, "Well, let me present to the team and I'll let you know by the end of the day. Or tomorrow." My team meets, we're all working from home now. So my team meets every day, first thing in the morning to talk about that. And that's when if we have these questions or we have a problem that needs to be solved, we can put it out there. So I do recommend for those folks that are new and coming up perhaps is build your network. Find a group of people that are like-minded, whether it's through LinkedIn, whether it's through ASSP, National Safety Council, but build your network. And the one thing that I have found just overall in the safety industry is safety people, people who are safety minded are always willing to share what they have, their knowledge. If you're looking for, let's say I need a safety program for lockout tagout, and you go to your group and say, "Does anybody have this? Do you know of someone who has this?" Chances are you will get a response and you'll get several good responses.

Jill James:

Yeah. And for people who are thinking, "Gosh, but Jane, how do you start building your network?" You gave some really great examples. And also you won't shy away from cold calling for help.

Jane Davies:

That's correct.

Jill James:

Want to talk about that? Yeah.

Jane Davies:

Sure. Like I said, well, first of all, I'm a huge consumer of information. Take the free webinars that come across your desk, register for them. Even if you don't take it, they'll send you a recording. I know it jams up your email box, your inbox, but do it and look at the publications. You don't have to read the whole thing. You don't have to sit down for an hour and read through it. But I had found a person, the state uses Google for their email platform and their office, the state of Arizona does. And so their office suite. So we use Google Sheets, we use Google Docs, and I was glancing through, it was probably the AH&S monthly magazine, and it had the 40 under 40 list. And I was just quickly, I like to look and see who are the up and coming stars. And I happened to just read somebody's bio in there that said they had created a EHS system using Google work sites. And I thought, wow, that's really interesting. I probably have some customers that can use that. They had his name and his company there. So I called him and he was excited to talk to me and he was perfectly happy to schedule some time and go through the whole program, how he had put it together, how it worked. It was fabulous. And I may take some of that information and use it to help some of our state agencies that need that type of support. We're always looking for the least expensive method to-

Jill James:

Of course, you work for government. Absolutely.

Jane Davies:

I work for government. Yes. The best use of the taxpayers dollars is cost-efficient. So if we can leverage software that we currently have and come up with a good solution, all the better. But this person, I just happened to happen to see it and I thought, "Wow, that's a great thing. I need to hear more about this." So Google's fabulous. And I called this gentleman up and he was so warm and willing to schedule time, and I'm still in touch with him. I haven't been able to get anybody to actually buy into this yet. But I do have a couple of people who are interested in at least seeing it and he's still interested in coming back and showing it again.

Jill James:

That's wonderful. That's wonderful. And dear listeners, for any of you who are like, "I don't know about this cold calling business, Jane was talking about," it's literally how I get every podcast guest literally. Like Jane do. How did we connect? You sent me a thank you, which was wonderful, and I said, "Hey, how about coming on the show."

Jane Davies:

Right. Yeah. Let's go one further with that. I actually took one of the free webinars and one of your folks followed up with me, and-

Jill James:

That was it.

Jane Davies:

... I said, "Thank you, but no thank you because we currently have a safety training library," but big fan of the podcast. And then we chatted about that for a minute, and then I get a LinkedIn request from Jill James who says, "Hey, do you want to be on the podcast?" And I was like, "What? Come on, come on."

Jill James:

Yeah. That's literally how it works over a hundred times know and I don't know that I've had anyone who said no. And you're right. It's following this thread of maybe I'm paying attention a lot on LinkedIn to what people are saying and the way that they're saying things. And sometimes the way that someone frames something up or presents something or shared a white paper, I'm like, "Oh, that's interesting. They seem like they might know something that I don't know, which is a lot or a story that's interesting. And they just seem intriguing to me." So I just reach out. And so for our listeners, when you're trying to build your network, as Jane said, or build your knowledge base, absolutely reach out. That is the great thing about our chosen profession is that the majority of us are willing to share.

Jane Davies:

Yep. Yes, that is true. And I have not run into a situation where I have called up somebody in the safety profession and said, "Hey, I need help with this." And they said, "Well, are you crazy? Go somewhere else." Because we are all, I think that's what we want to do. We want to help people. And the other piece of that is build your network. And that kind of leads me into another piece that I was thinking about, which is say what you mean and mean what you say. So the other piece is in relationship building, especially with people, if you tell somebody, "Look, I'm going to get this to you by this date." Make sure that you do that. Or if you say that you're going to provide something for them, make sure you do that because that's a big part of the building trust also. Say what you mean and mean what you say. So if you're helping someone out in the field and you don't know the answer to the asbestos question as it were, you tell them, "Okay, well let me present that to the team. I'll get back to you." And then make sure you do get back to them. Because if you don't, they're not going to come to you again. And you lose that credibility and-

Jill James:

Yeah, trust.

Jane Davies:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. That's very good. Jane, coming back to the ask good questions piece, I'm just thinking about good questions and the way that you kind of dig into things. Do you want to, I'm guessing you might have a little bit of a formula maybe, or some standard questions you use. Would you like to share any of them?

Jane Davies:

Gosh, that's a great question. I don't know that I do, but as I alluded to before, especially if you're talking to... There's an end point, especially if you're out in the field and you're working with someone and they always say, "Ask humble questions." But I always try to frame it in, "Teach me something." Because especially some of the folks that have been embedded in their position for so long and they're, "Oh, here comes this kid." And they're going to start giving me all of the business about safety, and I know all about it, but it's getting them to recognize what the hazard is and what they do to control it. So having them, especially if they've been embedded in the position a lot, and you're the new guy coming in, so they're the asbestos expert and I really can't bring anything to the table that they have. So tell me, "Okay, we're going to do this asbestos project, what would I have to do first?" And have them walk you through that. And what I found more often than not is as they are walking through the process, they will walk to the answer you are looking for. And then you see the light go on when they get there. Because that's what you're trying to get them to do, is they know the answer. And you find that a lot also is that they know the answer, but they don't have the tools to actually get to that answer. So tell me, so we have this asbestos project, or you have people that you don't want to damage the walls, let's say in the building. So how do we go about that? How do we go about making sure that they can't damage the walls or they don't damage the walls, and what happens if they do damage the walls and have them walk you through that?

Jill James:

I think you have a formula and you just didn't know it. Okay. So what I heard you say, Jane, for all of our listeners, is ask humble questions. My gosh, that's beautiful. Absolutely. Don't walk in assuming that you know it all, it puts people off. And your piece about using the framing of teach me, show me how. Teach me this works, how you do this. And then you also said, "How can we control this hazard? What are your ideas? And how can we do X, Y, and Z? And what happens if..." I think that's beautiful. That's perfect.

Jane Davies:

Yeah.

Jill James:

You did it.

Jane Davies:

Oh, thank you.

Jill James:

You got it. You got it. You got one. You got one. And it's a good thing.

Jane Davies:

And stories, again, like, I know a guy, but also stories, and I know I've told you this as well, steal them. If you don't have any stories of your own, somebody does have one, steal it. I steal Jill's all the time.

Jill James:

Thanks, Jane.

Jane Davies:

I use the worst case-

Jill James:

You're welcome to them.

Jane Davies:

I use the worst case scenario mom often, which is one of my favorites. And again, I don't, there are certain things that I just don't have stories for. I have used a welder in my life, not professionally, but personally, but things like forklift, I have not operated a forklift except for the one time where I thought, "Oh my goodness, I've never operated a forklift. I should probably take this class that my coworker is training so that I have some practical application." Which is never a bad thing, but steal the stories so I can talk about, take the training, listen to somebody else's story, and or have the people that you're training tell you their stories.

Jill James:

That's right. That's right. Gosh, Jane, that's so important. I've never operated a crane. I don't know how to operate a crane. How many crane operators have I spoken with in my career? Quite a few. So what did I learn from one of them? One of them said to me when I was asking about "How do you know if the weight of your load, the weight of the pick that you're going to do, that it's not too heavy for the crane that you have. Are you using the tables that are placards on the inside of the crane?" And then one at one point someone said to me, "I feel it in my butt," meaning the crane starts to lift up. And I'm like, "Oh. Oh, that's not good." So what kind of questions did I start asking? "Hey, do you use the tables in inside the crane when you're figuring out if your crane's being exceeded? Or do you feel it in your butt?" And then people would laugh, and they knew immediately what I was saying. I've never operated a crane, but that one person who told me that story I've been able to use for the last 30 years.

Jane Davies:

Right? Yeah. So that's absolutely true. And you'll recognize the stories that resonate with you. I don't know that I would ever speak to a crane operator, but for forklifts, I can steal those stories. Or I like using, when I'm doing OSHA training, I like using YouTube videos that I think that are short and impactful because the stories are out there, and you don't necessarily have to be the one who was injured in order to have that impact on folks.

Jill James:

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. A coworker of mine reminded me the other week about a YouTube channel, I think it's called Something like How It's Made. And it shows different essentially manufacturing processes or other processes about how a thing is created and made. And for anyone who's trying to figure out "What would that industry look like, what would it be like? How do they do what they do?" You know what I mean? Because in your role with the state, you get to see these various kinds of work environments. And so it really widens and enriches your level of knowledge and expertise about how things are done. And I have that same experience having worked for OSHA, but people who don't get that visuals into seeing all these different kinds of work environments, how can they gain that knowledge? And I looked at that YouTube channel and I thought, "Gosh, this is actually really good for teaching people like what might it look like? What might it feel like? What is the machinery? How are people moving? How are these things being made?" And I think that might be a way for people to gain a little bit of that information and knowledge.

Jane Davies:

That's awesome.

Jill James:

Good old YouTube.

Jane Davies:

Good old YouTube. Yes, that's right. And I think that's where I was going earlier when I said Google is great, so you can go for cold calling. The cold calling. Now we have Google, Google's fantastic, and you can just Google somebody's name and the company that they work for, and at least get a phone number. And that's literally what I did. I knew what the gentleman's name was. I think I found him on LinkedIn and I found the company that he worked for. I called the company and said, "Yeah, I'm calling to talk to... And he doesn't know me, but I saw him in this magazine and I have some questions about this program that he set up and I want to ask him more." And he was-

Jill James:

Fantastic.

Jane Davies:

And he was totally excited about it. And like, "Oh my goodness," kind of like I was, when Jill called me. You're like, "Oh my goodness, somebody actually read the article." And like I said, I didn't read the entire magazine. I was just glancing through there and I saw the word Google work sites, and I was like, "Oh we use Google work sites. What's he doing?"

Jill James:

Yeah, you asked a humble question. That's wonderful. Yeah. So Jane, how are you think about and what you believe about the EHS role to be today compared to what you knew safety was when you were growing up? Can you do a-

Jane Davies:

That's funny.

Jill James:

Can you do a compare and contrast to where-

Jane Davies:

Sure I can do a compare and contrast.

Jill James:

... where you started in life and where you are today. Yeah.

Jane Davies:

All right. Well, I started, my background is pretty western, to say the least. My father was a farrier horseshoer, and he was also a professional rodeo cowboy. He was a steer wrestler. And my brother is also, he's a farrier today, and he was also a professional cowboy. More of the rest stock riding. But I always like to say that the cowboy way that I grew up in was the original Nike philosophy of "Just do it." So most of the guys in that Western atmosphere, it's a just do it attitude, just get it done. And I didn't think at the time there was a whole lot of safety involved in it. When I look back at, I think I told you, my dad took every grounding plug off of every piece of power equipment we ever had for whatever reason.

Jill James:

Dang.

Jane Davies:

And I didn't realize it until I got it.

Jill James:

You didn't know that was as bad thing.

Jane Davies:

[inaudible 00:44:46] safety. Right. Like "Oh, okay." I didn't do it. It wasn't something that I personally subscribed to. I have no idea why he did it, but I think about he was a horseshoer, and we were free labor, so we were the designated horse handlers. During the summertime, we would go with dad and he would be working on somebody's horse, and I would have a lead rope wrapped around my hand, and he would stop and say, "That's not how you do that. If the horse pulls back, it's going to lock your hand into that, and then you're going to go, wherever the horse goes, you're going to get drug. And that is not what we want to happen." So I really had, when I started getting into the EHS piece and started thinking about safety and the things that would get people hurt was what I got when I was a kid. I didn't get a lot of the specifics as far as electrical safety, but the things that were... I'm really having a hard time articulating such-

Jill James:

Yeah. You're describing risk and what you learned through the lived experience of risk.

Jane Davies:

So I was exposed to it as a kid. I don't know that I embraced it as much until I got into the EHS piece. And it isn't that people don't know what's inherently safe and what's not inherently safe. I think in the workplace, it's the desire to make a good impression and get the job done quickly, that adds to the risk. So it's-

Jill James:

For sure.

Jane Davies:

I think I'm much more aware of the behavior based component of it now than I was growing up. But I think, and it's funny because I mentioned safety to my brother, and he just looks at me and rolls his eyes and it's like, "Oh yeah, you OSHA person, you,."

Jill James:

Because he's doing it the cowboy way.

Jane Davies:

Most of the time. But it's funny because I see how they react with people, both my father and my brother. They're very compassionate and empathetic people when it comes to caring for others and-

Jill James:

Because they care for animals. Mm-hmm.

Jane Davies:

Right. And if I could see a little bit more of that, I think in our workplaces today, and I don't know how many of you out there, and I try to teach this and I try to speak to this every day where you go into a workplace after there's been an injury or an accident or you're looking at this and their first response is, "Oh, well it's the person's fault."

Jill James:

Yeah. Blame the victim.

Jane Davies:

Blame.... Well, I hear common sense.

Jill James:

Yes, that's only [inaudible 00:48:14], mm-hmm.

Jane Davies:

Oh you know, that's just common sense, but-

Jill James:

What is that? Yeah.

Jane Davies:

Right. That's not a fair assessment. And like I said, I tried to speak to it "Well, nobody got up this morning and said, 'Hey, I'm going to go to work and tip a forklift over. Betcha I can do it.'" But something has happened. Either it's complacency, lack of training, I don't know how many times... Everybody's trained to... We all get in our cars and we put our seatbelts on. Everybody does it and they do it without thinking it. Why when you get into a golf cart or a forklift, do you not do it?

Jill James:

That's right.

Jane Davies:

Where's the disconnect there? And is it, if we took the doors off the cars, would they then not use the seat belts because it's going to impede their rapid exit from the vehicle? It's kind of where that goes. So it's the-

Jill James:

Common sense... Yeah, go ahead.

Jane Davies:

No, why do we always say, "Oh, well, that's just common sense, everybody should know that."

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's common sense is vastly different.

Jane Davies:

Right?

Jill James:

You know what your dad and your brother taught you about not wrapping the lead rope around your hand is common sense to them, but it's not to anyone outside of the industry.

Jane Davies:

And it's common sense to me now.

Jill James:

Yeah. When I think about common sense and what I learned when I was growing up, and not all of us have an opportunity like you did to work as free labor as you put it, next to your dad with the horses. I had the opportunity to have a parent who worked in a factory that was directly across from my elementary school. And I walked and he worked a swing shift, and I would walk from my grade school across the street and onto the factory floor. And it was a printing factory, so printing presses, making magazines, so all this whirling, whirling paper and ink. And there were seven men, that's what they called them, that worked on the presses. My dad was the lead pressman, and I knew all the jobs of all those people because I would stand there and wait for his shift to end. And then he would inevitably, somehow, I don't know if he told me or other people told me it was a loud, noisy environment. I'm a little girl sometimes selling my Girl Scout cookies standing next to the whirling presses. And I knew all the injuries all of them had. I knew that so-and-so got his finger cut in this thing. And so-and-so had a back injury here, and my dad had this injury there. And so I was identifying the risks and learning about these injuries by these seven men who ran this printing press. And that became my common sense, not because I did the job, but I stood there and watched them. And then they were like, "Stand here, move over there. You can't be here." So that I didn't get caught in some whirling piece of the equipment and watching how carefully they did some things specifically with, in the printing industry, when there is an error in the printing, they use a little tiny plastic card about the size of a credit card, and as the ink is rolling against the paper, they'll pick that little imperfection off. Can you imagine reaching into it? Right? I watched that as a kid, and so fast forward to my profession, and I learned what an in running nip point is. I'm like, "Oh yeah, I've seen that. Oh yeah, I've seen that. And I know the guy that got his hand got in that."

Jane Davies:

Right.

Jill James:

So common-

Jane Davies:

Do they have the card on a longer stick now? Is that?

Jill James:

I don't know.

Jane Davies:

So you don't have to stick your hand in there.

Jill James:

Yeah, I don't know. I haven't been back in the printing industry in many years. I inspected a newspaper printing company when I was with OSHA, and that was the second one that I've been in. But that's a good question. I don't know. My dad had the card and he kept it in his lunchbox.

Jane Davies:

Okay.

Jill James:

Yeah, I know.

Jane Davies:

My dad had the card and he kept it in his lunchbox. That's awesome.

Jill James:

Along with this peppermint gum.

Jane Davies:

Yeah, it's a little different. Right. Yeah, and my dad, well, this is a man who chose to jump off a running horse at a running steer. That was his idea of fun as it were.

Jill James:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. So the common sense is just-

Jane Davies:

Yeah so the risk-

Jill James:

It's a word that should be struck from our vocabulary.

Jane Davies:

Right. And common sense, I'm just thinking back, I just got done teaching in OSHA class and I heard that word, these guys, and they're just like, "Well, that's just common sense." So that's like, "Well," I use the Bill Cosby, if you've ever heard the Bill Cosby like chocolate cake for breakfast thing, when he talks about telling his kids to take a bath.

Jill James:

No.

Jane Davies:

And he would say, "Get in the bathtub, turn on the water." Otherwise they'll just wander around the bathtub with no water running, "Use soap." It's all the things, you need tell them, "Get in the bathtub, turn on the water." and it's kind of the same way with safety. When you ask somebody like, "Well, did they teach you to do that? Or did you figure this out on your own as far as how to do this one thing? What training have you had?" And that's a huge part of it is training too, and taking the time to when somebody new comes in to tell them. And it's interesting, the story that you gave as a child, the pressman, their awareness to the fact that you didn't understand or may not understand the risk or the exposure that you're having to this danger. Why do people lose that once we're all grown up and we're all in the-

Jill James:

[inaudible 00:55:12] blame and.

Jane Davies:

Yeah. And they just assume that this person lands on the press floor, and they're going to understand that, "Oh, that's how it is." We're much more aware for children-

Jill James:

Than for ourselves

Jane Davies:

Yeah. Or coworkers or peers. And why is that? It's a great question.

Jill James:

Yeah, it is a great question. Jane, I know we're running out of time here. You just finished your OSHA 30, and I wanted to ask you about that. How did that go for you

Jane Davies:

Training the OSHA 30?

Jill James:

Oh, you were doing the OSHA 30, you were teaching it?

Jane Davies:

Yeah, I am an OSHA 10 and an OSHA 30 trainer. And I tell you, I find that so enjoyable. I do. And I've had some really good, the last couple of OSHA 30 classes I've had have just been really, really gratifying to me because, and I know I've heard on your show before, you always tell folks "You don't know what you don't know until you know what you don't know." And that is, I know you had asked me what do I take away from the podcast? And a lot of it is stories. And again, I know I try to use things that are local to the Phoenix area when I talk about hazards and exposures. And just because there's a hazard, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily exposed to it. And I usually use grizzly bears as an example. Grizzly bears are hazardous, but we don't have a whole lot of exposure to grizzly bears in Arizona. So if there's no exposure, then chances are you're not going to be harmed by a grizzly bear. But that's right. There was an instance here in Phoenix at one of our zoos where a patron of that zoo breached a barrier to take a selfie, turned her back to the cage, and the Jaguar reached through and got her.

Jill James:

Dang.

Jane Davies:

And like I said, I'm positive that person didn't say, "Hey, let's go to the zoo. I want to be attacked by a Jaguar." And it's the exposure to the hazard. So the hazard, we can all agree that Jaguars are hazardous. And the person just did not understand that. And I'm sure that they made a conscious decision to step over the barrier and put themselves into proximity to the Jaguar. But then there were some other components that went into that. Did the facility understand that if somebody could breach the barrier, that there could be an exposure to the Jaguar by it reaching through that enclosure and getting ahold of somebody. There were a whole lot of other things that went into that.

Jill James:

Absolutely.

Jane Davies:

So again, not my story. I stole it.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. It absolutely works. Oh, man. Yeah. Jane, is there anything else that you'd like to share in closing with our listening audience today?

Jane Davies:

Gosh, build your network. Everybody, build your network. Find the stories that are impactful to you. They don't necessarily have to be your own and say what you mean and mean what you say. If you tell somebody you're going to do something, do something. And never be afraid to ask everybody for help. That's the one thing I'm sure my manager will be the happiest to hear me say, because I thought for a long time I needed to have the answers in order to be effective.

Jill James:

Yeah, that's right.

Jane Davies:

And I don't. I can find the answers. And I know people, I know a guy who can help me find the answers.

Jill James:

And we know each other now, so it's great.

Jane Davies:

That's true.

Jill James:

Yeah. That's great. Oh, that's perfect. Jane, thank you so much for that. And thank you for everything that you've shared today. And if, I guess the other thing that I would add is that everyone should probably fire up the old Google later and look for a Rhodesian ridgeback dog like I did while Jane was speaking because it's gorgeous. That's a gorgeous dog that helped you find your way to this profession.

Jane Davies:

Yes, yes. What I tell everybody is they are built for speed and endurance and their dog parents not so much.

Jill James:

It's wonderful. It's wonderful. Thank you so much, Jane.

Jane Davies:

It's been a pleasure, Jill, I so enjoyed speaking to you. Thank you for reaching out. I so appreciate it.

Jill James:

You're welcome. And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good, making sure your workers, including your temporary workers, make it home safe every day. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more EHS professionals like Jane and I. Special thanks to Emily Gould, our podcast producer, and until next time, thanks for listening.