#100: How Important are Soft Skills in Safety?

Jill James:

This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded December 16th, 2022. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer, and today my guest is Nadia Ullah Morin. Nadia is a QHSE lead at a water technology manufacturing company with a background in biology, chemistry, and crude oil quality control testing. Nadia joins us today from Texas. Welcome to the show, Nadia.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Hello. Thank you everyone. Thank you, Jill, for having me. Good afternoon.

Jill James:

Well, you're so welcome. So happy to have you here. Nadia, you are kind of new in this EHS profession. I think you told me you've been in it about three years now?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah, just about three years.

Jill James:

Wonderful. It's always nice to have someone with a new and fresh perspective on the industry on the show. It happens every once in a while, and so I'm so glad that you decided to do this with us. So tell us, what's your winding path? How did you even get toward this? Do you want to start in college or do you want to start before that? What's it look like for you?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I guess I would start, in my mind it starts in college, but yesterday I was talking with my husband about leadership in general, and then I realized I think my desire for service started even in high school. But from a technical aspect in college I studied pre-med and biology, and just in my mind I was like just the classic, I want to help people trope. And year four, I had switched my major to medical humanities instead of plain biology.

Jill James:

Oh, interesting.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah. So I thought like, "Okay, maybe being a doctor is not the only way, but what about the patient physician relationship or more behind the scenes in terms of how to support clinical settings?" So I knew that studying medical humanities would allow me to expand my thinking of how I could help people. I just wasn't exactly sure why or how I would do it. And then I actually ended up leaving college for a bit, having a, I guess sabbatical you could say. I had a child. So then going back to school about two years later just to finish college, I was so out of my element, didn't know... I knew at that time after having a kid and going back to school, "Okay. I don't want to go to medical school anymore. That's not something I want to pursue, but what can I do?" So I started working actually at Whole Foods in the bakery and it was such an amazing culture, like a work culture to be introduced to first job out of college, and it was the introduction to food safety, but safety was not even on my mind at the time. I was still like, "Okay, how can I make my parents proud? What can I do?" But I really enjoyed what I did, working with amazing teams and being able to make people happy. I'm decorating some cakes every now and then, but mostly just technical work in the bakery, nothing groundbreaking. From there, my husband had really encouraged me. He's like, "Nadia, you have a science degree. What else do you want to do? What can you do? Just fix your resume." So I was like, "Okay."

Jill James:

Yeah, and Nadia, just to pause for a second, you had mentioned a couple of things I wanted to ask you about. Like you're saying your husband is encouraging you to use your science degree, and you said a moment ago that you really love the sciences. Talk about that. What did that mean for you to love the sciences?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I loved innovation and the possibilities and how people were able to discover things and what drove them to do research and to have breakthroughs. To me, science is not just about the bench and data, but how people can analyze data, and I felt like this was so creative to me, and I love painting and I love the arts, and so still I felt science was a way to exercise that creativity in a way that could be functional to me.

Jill James:

Yeah.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah. And so-

Jill James:

Wonderful.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

... I really... Mm-hmm.

Jill James:

Yeah. And you had also mentioned that you made a discovery in high school about your want to help people, which I feel like we're kind of weaving into that.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah.

Jill James:

You know? You said you started working for Whole Foods and they really had a great work culture and you liked doing the service piece of the piece of it. What turned you onto that discovery as a young person that you knew you wanted to help people?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I grew up as a first generation American, so my parents came from, my mom came from Venezuela, and my dad came from Bangladesh, so they really inspired my love for education. They're like, "Hey, we came to this country so that way you could really have a great chance at educating yourself and being someone and doing something great." So I felt like, okay, when I'm at school, I really want to make the most out of it. What can I do to contribute? Because I really felt like the best way to pay back my parents for all of their sacrifice was to build myself into someone who could make a bigger impact. So in high school, so my friends had convinced me to do the JROTC, like the junior kind of Army class, and I loved it. I just loved how specific and technical it was, like your uniforms had to have all this certain, like very small spacing, like one fourth of an inch centered. Everything was so technical.

Jill James:

Yeah. You like processes. Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I do. I really do.

Jill James:

Yeah. That's great.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

And so I loved the ROTC thing, and I started as a freshman and I became the unarmed drill team commander by the time I was a junior in high school. And at the same time, I was really heavily into art as well, so I always had that balance of where can I be free and expressive, and then where can I be technical and just strict and to the point. And so in high school, yeah, I loved the ROTC, and leading my team, so that was something that I found that the leaders before me were so inspiring. Like, how can they bring people together? Because you can tell someone all day, "Hey, your uniform has to be perfect, your hair, your movements, all of our marches and everything turns super sharp." You can tell people that all day, but truly the beauty was in motivating people and bringing them together and being able to inspire, and so I really loved that about ROTC. And so when I went to college and I was like, "Okay, I just want to do sciences." I have so much respect for science and research, and I just wanted to be part of something bigger, I guess, and science to me is this like shining laboratory I always think about. Yeah. So when I got to Whole Foods, I really loved the bakery and how technical even just like, oh, you got to check the freezer temperature every so-and-so hours and record it on this log. I don't know. I just thought it was cool. I find a lot of fun in the mundane, I guess, because I love the why, why you do it.

Jill James:

It's satisfying. Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

It is. And then so after that, I actually was approached to learn how to do third party quality control testing for a crude oil laboratory, and it's a global company that they do certifications of your oil, like we would... what's the word? Crude oil assay. What is it? Distillation? Yeah, sorry.

Jill James:

Okay.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

So we would distill the crude oil into fractions, and then we would do a whole slew of tests, and then that's when I got to put on a lab coat and really get into there and get dirty. I remember the first time that my lab manager told me, she said, "Nadia, you are an excellent chemist," and I was just beaming because it had been a few years since I got out of college. You know, I had been working in a grocery store. So I finally was like, "Oh, wow. Okay. I'm moving forward. I'm moving into a path. I'm not sure what that path is, but I'm starting to do more of what I like and I'm exploring." So, I did that. It was a contract, so I did that for about a year, and that's where I was saying, "Hey, I want to talk about this analene story," because there are a lot of harsh chemicals in this lab and since I had worked in just in chemistry labs in college, and there was not everyone working in that third party lab had a degree. They could just have like technical experience.

Jill James:

Sure.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I was such a stickler for compliance in terms of like the fume hood, and I would be like, "Okay, guys. Who left the fume hood open? Can y'all please put down the sash?" And there is this chemical in there that it binds to the hemoglobin in your blood and it will basically suffocate you from the inside.

Jill James:

Lovely.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I was so scared about it. I would be shaking.

Jill James:

Legit. Legit. Yeah.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes. I would be shaking doing the tests under the fume hood because it was like, whatever. You had to double glove and put your arms into the fume hood and just do the test in there. But every now and then, if the analene got empty, you had to be very careful, like open the fume hood and refill it, and I never wanted to do that because I just was like, "Okay, this is scary."

Jill James:

What if I spill it and it's this big...

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes.

Jill James:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Exactly.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

So I just remember our departments within the QC lab, we would take turns having to submit safety reports. They were called crystal reports. And so when it was my team's turn and they were like, "Okay, Nadia, it's your turn this week. You can submit whatever your safety report is." I went off on everything that I'd seen in the lab because that was my last straw. I was like, this analene hood? Like, no. And I wrote like a full page of just, "Okay, I saw this," and I said... I would try to include how I was attempting to correct it because there was something else, like someone left acid in a tube out in the open out in the back of the lab, and so all these things. And then like a month later, my colleague was like, "Nadia," and she brought me this printed piece of paper, like they had published my safety report without my name on it, but on their company newsletter, and my face was purple. I was like, "Oh my God." But I was like, "Hey, but someone listened." They wanted to do something about it, but I felt like, okay-

Jill James:

That's awesome.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I was like, "Oh, wow." I felt so complex emotions because, you know, you don't want to be that annoying person that wants to keep people safe, but someone has to do it. So, that was my first introduction to the importance of safety, but also the complex emotions that come with being safe. Not everyone wants to hear it. Not everyone at the moment will care, or they're just like, "Okay, we have work to do." But I was like, "No, this is really important and I want to work safe."

Jill James:

That's right.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah. I just was like, if I don't feel safe working here, what about the other employees? Especially the ones who don't have the same chemical background as I do? Like how are they going to keep themselves safe because you're not constantly supervised? Like sometimes we're working till 1:00, 2:00 in the morning. Yeah. So, there was that, and the lab manager who did safety, he was so compassionate and he would come and just talk to us, and so I never had any kind of... I never knew about a safety taboo like stereotype at the time. To me, my safety lab manager was amazing, so I really respected this man. He was great.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And did-

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah?

Jill James:

And after you published, after your report was published without your knowledge, did things change?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah. I did see a lot of lab managers kind of on their toes more. I guess they probably got a talking to after that. I don't know. Yeah. But I also saw a change in how I was treated a little bit like, "Oh, is Nadia going to be troublesome because she's going to call us out on all this stuff? Is she going to cause more of a ruckus than she's working," kind of? And I was like, oh, you know, well.

Jill James:

Well, it sounds Nadia like you were being clear. You know, like you were being clear. You found your line in the sand as a professional and you stated it and you stood in your power and in your opinion and as my favorite Brené Brown says, clear is kind, and so you were clear.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Oh, I love that. I'm going to write that down. And you know, it's funny that you mentioned that because I had to learn how to do that again, but as a safety professional, like as someone whose job it became to do that. So, I do want to come back to that.

Jill James:

Yes.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I kind of wasn't thinking about safety after that, after I went to another lab. So my contract was over, and then I worked in a completely different environment where it was a research lab for improved oil recovery, and there were like two other people. Tiny lab. So I go from this global third party lab to this three person lab that had no structure because it's R&D. They didn't have anything written down. So, they hired me on so I could help implement what I had learned in that bigger laboratory, so I was helping them refine their processes, record what they were doing and create procedures out of their testing. So, that was a lot of fun, and I just helped them make a chemical inventory, consolidate SDS, things like that that to me were standard lab practices, so I was just kind of bringing some of that to there. But it was very relaxed rather than what I was doing before. And then the pandemic hit and so, you know, you can't work from home when you're working in a lab like that as a lab tech, so I was just home for three months. Then I had applied to be a lab tech at this water technology manufacturing company, and on the interview I was so nervous because I was just like, "Okay, I've only worked in two labs. What am I going to do?" And at the last question that he asked me, he was the VP of R&D. He's like, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" And I was not prepared for that question, Jill. I don't even know why. I was like, "Oh, I could see myself being a lab manager or being in safety," and I didn't even know why I said that because I had never thought about being in safety before that but it was almost like my life was just telling me where to go, like so, so funny.

Jill James:

There must be some safety god that put those words in your mouth that we didn't know about existed before. That's awesome.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Basically.

Jill James:

Okay.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

And so he called me back like a few days later and was like, "Well, we went with another candidate for lab tech just because we were looking for a little bit more data manipulation, but we would really like to bring you on for QC because you do have that background." And I was like, "Okay, great." I didn't even care. I was like, "Okay. I'm happy to just start working." So, I started working in QC and it's like a warehouse job, you know? Like just very rugged kind of work, getting wet and dirty, but it was a lot of fun because I was able to ask a lot of questions about processes and standards because this company kind of shifted from an R&D type of model into commercial manufacturing or more of, how can we start structuring to take our company to the next level?

Jill James:

Sure.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

So I was able to do what I did for the other lab, but on even a bigger scale, like, "Okay. Well, you don't have these processes or these standards. What can we do to pave that way from a quality control standpoint?" Like how are we verifying our data? What are we doing? And they loved that, and I was so glad to just be useful and to contribute. We'd gotten a new VP of operations at the time, and I had just introduced myself. I was like, "Oh, hi. I'm Nadia. Do you need any help with spreadsheets? Because I can do that." And then he was like, "What?" And so I was in my mind writing down all of the things I wanted to implement, and I was like, "Okay. I'm going to make my case so I can try to become the QC lead." And then he took me into his office a month or two later and was like, "Okay. I want to talk to you about doing health and safety." And my jaw just dropped, like all my notes went out the door of like everything I was trying to convince on the QC aspect. And he told me, "I can teach you the skills that you need to learn, but I can't teach someone else how to have your ambition, so I want you to do this and train to do this."

Jill James:

Beautiful.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I was so inspired and I felt like, "Wow, this is amazing." So of course I just absolutely all hands on deck, let me do that. I will try my best. I had no idea what I was in for, but I really could have never expected this opportunity. I mean, it was the grandest opportunity of my lifetime, like it paved my career, and I'm always so grateful, like indebted to this company and to that mentor. I view this man as my mentor. So, over the next year-

Jill James:

That's beautiful.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Thank you. I mean, you know, I didn't expect it, and I always think back to that interview where I was like, "Uh, safety," and then here I was like, "Okay, yeah, maybe I can. Maybe this is it for me, what I can really do."

Jill James:

Yeah. I mean, and professionally, Nadia, the things that you've been talking about where you really have been helping organizations kind of build things that never existed before and helping from the ground up, and that's a beautiful skill to have. That's a great skillset to have. Especially in, you know, you weaved your way eventually into EHS, but you set a foundation for yourself to know that I can build something from the ground up, and in our profession, more often than not, many of us start out our careers being the first person, or you stepped into a system that maybe has a little bit of this little bit of that, and you do have to build things from the ground up, so you had that foundation set for yourself, so that's wonderful. Yeah. Talk about what happens now. You got your first official safety job.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes. Thank you so much. So, yeah, after that, navigating that journey, it's been phenomenal and it's been more character building than I could have ever imagined because he was so right. All those other skills and technical things, you can learn how to read OSHA standard. You can learn how to do all that and you don't have to memorize it. That's the best part. You can know where to find the tools and how to give that out, but the hard part, it was, okay, there's so much to build and do, like where do you start and then how do you keep it up? How do you get everyone on board? Because our company culture was... You know, there was not even a requirement of when you step into the shop, do you have to wear safety shoes? And so where I came from before is you don't go in there without full glasses, PPE, whatever. It's not a crude oil lab, but saltwater, it's not terrible, but there are some chemicals. There's definitely a lot of slip, trip, fall hazards with working with water, and so I just had to really consider what my mentor asked me one day. He said, "Nadia, what can you do right now that will have the biggest impact?" And that was almost three years ago that he introduced me to that question and I still ask myself that today because there's always going to be more to do.

Jill James:

That's right?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah. So when I started, there are some key learning points or key things that I really had to think about, like as I was reviewing everything that I've learned and done.

Jill James:

Yeah. Share those. Yeah, share those. I mean, this is really good information for our listening audience, especially people who are starting out like you.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Okay. So, one of them was going from that mentorship and having that approval into like, how do you put the wind in your own sail, so to speak? Because after about a year and a half, my mentor separated from the company. He gave me so much solid feedback on my work to where he wasn't just helping me in that moment. He was really helping me grow, and then it was gone. And then I had reported to just a number of people and everyone had their own way of wanting to do safety, and then so I had to understand, like what is the difference between approval and feedback? Because, yeah. And so at first, okay, it'd be like, "Oh, wow. We never had an incident reporting program. We'd never had this training," and like, "Great job, Nadia. Pat on the back," And then it's like crickets for a while. And I was like, "Okay. Let me not take this personally." Like is it because I'm doing a good job, I'm not hearing anything? Or is it because I'm not... You know, I had to take a step back from myself and really think about the program and the employees, and that was hard because people don't teach you how to not need approval anymore, and so there was that. So for a while, I kind of felt like where is my backbone or like my courage? Because everyone wants safety done a different way. And then it's like, "Well, at my old company, we did it like this." "Well, we used to do it like that." "Well, no. That's too much, Nadia. You're too in the weeds. We don't need all that detail. Let's just do this."

Jill James:

Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

So after, for a little bit I was just conceding to, "Okay, you know what? That's how they want to do it? Fine, we'll do it that way," and then it doesn't work, and then I'm like, "Okay, you see?" You know?

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

So then I'm like, "All right, where's the balance between, of course, I want all the feedback from both employees and from management, but where do I say I am the safety professional even when sometimes I don't feel like it? This is my job." No one else is going to stop you and say, "Hey, I know that this is going to hold up production a little bit, but we need to install a guardrail right here because you can't have this bay door open and have this over four feet of fall. You can't." You know, there were things like that, like we didn't have all kinds of stuff. And so just to say, "Okay, well." You know, in the beginning one of my coworkers said, "Oh, you're the safety person. Everyone hates that guy." Jokingly. You know? I love that person. They've become a good friend of mine. But I was like, "No, I don't want to be hated. That's so not me."

Jill James:

Yeah. I know, Nadia. This is the bane of our existence as EHS professionals. You'll hear this over and over and over again in your career, and it's so wonderful that you've identified like, where's my backbone? Because that just, it's cliché, and then when something goes wrong, everybody wants you.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Okay, seriously. Yes. Exactly.

Jill James:

I mean, that's just how it works. I'm preparing to go to a Christmas party tonight, and I'm not going to know a lot of people, and people are going to say, "What do you do?" I'm going to say safety, and they're going to go, "Ooh." And that's the same response you get everywhere in life.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

And that's what I've heard. So that was like, okay. Like I heard it in the beginning and then I had to live through it, and I was like, I want to be friends with everyone. But I will say that I have been able to make this position my own. At least here I can really say like I fought against that safety stereotype because it didn't work to say, "Nadia," my manager, I remember he was like, "You need to go hair, teeth and nails." No, what did he say? "Skin, teeth and hair?" I don't know what he said, but I was like, "What are you talking about?" But he's like, "No, you need to be more assertive and just go for it and make them be compliant," and especially when you can't depend on... I guess not that you can't depend on management support, but that you have to work independently outside of just assuming or expecting. So, I had to really see... I guess let me backtrack to when I started. When I took on the safety role, my boss was like, "Hey, so your role is going to be giving them the resources, setting up the program, and then letting them help you. They're going to run it. You just kind of show them how to do it." Okay. That sounds easy enough. That is not how it went exactly. Yeah. So, then I'm midway into this, trying to build this program, and I'm like, "Hey, guys. I thought it was going to be me giving you the resources and rolling it out, and then you were going to take it from there."

Jill James:

In an ideal world, Nadia. That's how we all aspire it to work in an ideal world. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

And I would say it just took a little bit more navigating to make that true. So, what happened was then maybe like a year and a half into building this, it was very hard to keep things going or to have consistency, and so I had to understand, "Okay, I can't be upset that it's hard for them because it's new for them."

Jill James:

That's right.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

And management, too. So, that's what I mean. It's not that it's lack of support. It's that it's new for everyone, and at the same time we're also trying to create processes for every other department. I mean, engineering, R&D, manufacturing, purchasing, supply chain, everything. So, there's a lot of newness and process going on, and so instead of me... I had to realize, okay, I cannot just sit on the sidelines and expect people to just do it because I said, "Hey, it's good for you." So being more hands-on, and so this is where I say I fought against that stereotype of you just have to do it. People aren't going to like you, whatever. Because that wasn't working. Like being distanced or isolated from them, especially emotionally, it didn't help them connect with why safety was important. And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to get to know them, get to know my colleagues, get to know the shop employees. And that way when they see my face, it's not just, "Nadia's about to tell me to do something."

Jill James:

That's right.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I would just get to know them and go out there and talk to them about their... I got to know about their family. What do they do for fun? What about their weekend? And in those ways, I was able to show them I deeply care about them and about their safety and their health and that I'm like this all the time, not just at work, and that I just want the best for people because if you can work safely, then you can go home and be creative and expand your life, and so I wanted that for them.

Jill James:

Perfect.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

And then I got to do that and lead with compassion and lead with humor and fun, and that's when people started being compliant and when they started doing it, because they're like, "Okay. Nadia's not just asking me to submit safety reports because she needs to fulfill this quota of participation. It's because we want to work together to have all eyes on the floor to understand the conditions we're working in because it helps everybody." And so it's being in safety is being a motivational speaker. It's being a leader that like, how can you bring people together and bring forth their strengths? And those are ways that I never knew I was going to build my character as a safety professional.

Jill James:

That's right. Relationship building, that's a skill that if you have that with a good safety background, that's where your power is. That's where your power is is being able to build those relationships. You can do exactly what you're talking about to let people know that you care and you're being able to transfer this knowledge of, "I care about you and here's why you need to care about this so that you can take care of yourself and go back to your family," and that's a magic gift to be able to have that. Many of us in this field talk about our relationship building skills and the way that people do that, and then there's of course a group of EHS professionals that we might call the safety cops, you know, who really don't have a lot of relationship skill building, and it'd be interesting to know, like is there a study? Like how successful are the people who are just busting jobs versus building relationships? So, you're nailing it early in your career, and that's beautiful.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Oh, that's so amazing to hear, and that's so true. I think that's what I thought safety would be like, like more I guess people expecting you to just kind of go out there and be safety police. But, yeah, it's so much more, and I'm so glad to know that my soft skills have such a place in this field, right, and I'm just really grateful that it all worked out and came together in that way for me. Yeah. So in building that program and building these relationships, and then the next step is like, okay, so, yes, we need to identify the gaps in our compliance, but also the various reasons for those gaps. Because I got to know people, it's like, okay, in some instances, let's say something simple like wearing your safety glasses in the shop. All right. Some people are not wearing them because they don't know where to find them. Some people are not wearing them because they keep losing theirs. Some people just literally don't care because they don't understand the importance of them, so like training. And then I had one friend, you know, he was my friend, he was my colleague, and one of the biggest favors he did for me was he said, "Okay, Nadia. I just want to know what happens if I don't wear them. What are you going to do?" And I was like-

Jill James:

Great question. Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah, and I'm so glad that he had the courage to bring that to my attention. I remember one of the upper management had heard that he had that question and he was livid. He's like, "Why is he having such a rebellious attitude?" Like, "That's not indicative of someone who wants to be part of a team." And I had to really have my coworkers back and say, "Hey, he's actually not pointing that out just to be rebellious. He is pointing it out so we can deeply consider the culture that we're building. Are we trying to build compliance just saying like, 'Hey, no matter what, you wear these glasses when you come in here.'" Of course we want to have some things be so routine that we can put our energies towards bigger development, bigger things. But he was really saying like, "Okay, what happens from here? We're building this program, but in what ways are we trying to instill change?" And literally, what is going to happen if I don't wear them? Because nothing was happening. There wasn't any kind of repercussion or discussion or anything because no one wants to be the bad guy. No one wants to say, "I know you've been working here for a year and you never had to do any of this, and now you have to do all the things." And so I had a conversation and I just was like, "Well, first of all, I'm not your manager. I'm not HR. I'm not going to get anybody in trouble for anything. I'm going to simply report the facts and I'm also going to be able to give you the resources. Like, do you want to look through and see why we decided to have safety glasses as a bare minimum for coming in here? This is why we're doing X, Y, Z, and this is why we have this kind of be representative of a bigger picture." And so then I did a presentation on hazard awareness. After following this conversation with this person where I was really thinking like, "Okay, what can I do now for employees who also probably feel the same way?" And so I found this kind of organizational flow chart thing, but the point of it was how you do one thing is how you do everything and it showed how in companies, in these really top performing companies, and it didn't even matter the industry, the companies that were top performers also had top tier safety programs, and so you could measure someone's excellence through their safety program, and it just kind of made sense because if you can learn to do one program really well, especially something that is not just about compliance, but participation, and that's the root of your culture is like caring about people and having something be interactive and all hands on deck and where you're really leading by example. I mean, it has to be like safety's one of those things where it's like, "We're not always going to be watching you, but how will you behave and how will you treat your colleagues when I'm not there asking you to do this safety huddle or to wear this X, Y, Z?" And so in the endeavor for our company to excel in terms of our actual product and our services, how can we create our safety program to reflect what we're trying to do?

Jill James:

Nadia, I think the things that you were pointing out in this story, you're talking about why do I have to do this? The employee's asking, "Well, what's going to happen? What's going to happen if I don't do this?" And you know, you also pointing out like you want employees to perform the way that you train them in per policy when no one else is looking, right? And you also pointed out that you as the EHS professional in your organization, you don't have a stick. Right? You don't manage these people, and that is so common with our professional practice is like, how can we influence people to do what is needed when we don't manage them day to day? And so if we asked five different EHS professionals, you probably get five different responses. You know? You were using the power of your relationship building to get people to perform the way that you wanted them to perform. Someone else might say, you know, "I report my findings to managers," which is also part of your answer. Others may say, "I report my findings and then we have a disciplinary policy that we follow to the letter and we are maintaining records on those things to keep us out of jeopardy and out of hot water," and all of those answers are acceptable, and it's good that you're noticing that early in your career because this is an important piece. This is an important piece of the circle of keeping people home, getting people home safe and healthy every day, so this is wonderful. So, what's happening with your career now? What things are you tackling? Like you were saying you're always reevaluating. What's the biggest thing I need to be working on now? What does today look like?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah, that's a great question. So, today looks like, all right, we are nearly to the finish line of fine-tuning the foundation of our program, and it's something to where I can really think about, "Okay, after compliance, what comes next?" And being able to evaluate my consistency. Because also, our employees, I want them to fight complacency, so I have to be the first one to fight complacency. You know?

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

So like trying to catch it before it, not falls apart, but trying to keep it all together while, okay, now what can we do? So, now that we are putting the bells and whistles on, "All right. Now we have the policies, we have the plans, we have a first responder team we just finished putting together."

Jill James:

Congratulations.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Thank you. Yes. So exciting. We got to have a hands-on training for 10 of our employees in-house. We did first aid, CPR, AED and bloodborne pathogens, and that's the first time we ever had that kind of group training that was maybe like four hours long, and actually having the mannequins, because I'd started during the COVID era, so we couldn't. So, that was a lot of fun, so that is like I see the first steps towards this community safety, like this camaraderie of like, "All right. Now we're the first responder team. Let's meet once a month." It's almost like gearing towards having a safety committee and that's I think on the horizon for us as a company, like being able to now help our employees help us. I can't be everywhere at once, and so now that the foundation's there, it's like, how can I get people excited to help me keep tabs on everything in such a way of developing this program so we can all now participate in our safety? Not just in terms of observations, but giving them more responsibility. So, things that I used to do by myself, now how can I have this small but growing community in the workplace where we can work together in safety, because that's really how it should, not that it should be any one type of way, but ideally, safety is everyone's job.

Jill James:

That's right. That's right.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah.

Jill James:

You planted seeds and it sounds like they're beginning to grow.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes, yes. I love that. So, that's exciting to me because now also I can help other departments, like cross collaboration with sustainability and learning about ESG. So, I had gone to a safety and sustainability conference recently, and that was the first time that I was able to develop myself professionally. That was voluntary, an elective. It wasn't just taking an OSHA class for work, but it was expanding myself professionally, and so now I can really think of ways I can strengthen the program just from behind the scenes in ways that aren't so concrete and being able to learn from other professionals, and so that is something that I would love to take back to my workplace. Like, what are ways that I can get out of this bubble of my day-to-day job, but think about like where's our future a year from now or two years from now? And like how do we start really being able to trust the data we're collecting? Because now we're finally collecting data. We didn't have that before, so then what are we going to do with it? Those weren't questions that were in my mind before I went to that safety and sustainability conference. I was never thinking, "Well, now that you're collecting data, what are you doing with it? How do you leverage it?" And that's something that we didn't have the privilege of considering before.

Jill James:

Are you talking about the conference where you and I met or a different one?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes. The one, yeah.

Jill James:

Yeah. Yeah. And so with that, you're talking about data and collecting it, and sometimes that sounds like new territory to certain EHS professionals, particularly as it relates to the use of technology, and have you gotten to a point where you are using some technology in your work, Nadia?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes, and I'm not sure how it compares to other companies, but we do use a safety software to at least collect incident reporting and observation reporting, and then we can use that to do hazard evaluation for the facility and make a risk profile.

Jill James:

Wonderful.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Mm-hmm.

Jill James:

Wonderful. Our profession, you're new to our profession, and if you asked a whole bunch of people on a spectrum like how do you collect your data, people will give you so many different answers. Some of it is in technology, some of it's on a spreadsheet, some of it is extremely manual, and our profession has been so behind technology-wise compared to other professions within same industries who've been using different software programs for a millennia. And then along comes EHS going, "Wait a minute. What? We're using a clipboard," or "We have Excel." But there are those tools and resources for us, and they are widely available to use, and so it's good to hear that you're leaning into technology. This is good, Nadia. Good.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

I do love a good clipboard though, so don't get me wrong.

Jill James:

Well, I do too. I do too, and unfortunately it's spread into how I raise my child. You know, "Here's your list of chores and it's on a clipboard." You mentioned a bit ago about your own professional development, so I wanted to ask about that. How are you finding ways to teach yourself?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes. Great question because it's something I'm still considering so open to asking you the same, like how will I continue to teach myself? So, I signed up for the OSHA 511 class earlier this year, and when I was there, I really asked those other students about their backgrounds, because again, I mean, I could take that class online. I could learn a bunch of stuff just Googling and researching and reading all these safety websites, but just leaning into people because they have all of the industry knowledge and the hands-on experience, like what works and what doesn't. And then I'm really wanting to learn more about policy writing and about even just how these safety rules came about. So, one of the things that I'm inspired to delve into is my OSHA instructor said, "OSHA is a book of standards written in blood."

Jill James:

Yes.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah, like it really just made it so real, like with some of these things just become so routine at work but, oh my gosh, not for the people who lived through some tragic things and have seen a lot, and I never want our employees to go through that. So, in terms of learning and how I plan on expanding myself professionally, I'm trying to just be an octopus. I don't know, you like reach out every arm. Sometimes it feels like I'm in the dark trying to just see like, what can I do? What can I learn? But I really have learned to just, I guess, trust myself one step after the other because I've led myself here so far, and so I think as long as I'm leading with intention and having a desire to seek and grow and to observe and listen. I know it sounds so-

Jill James:

No, it doesn't. It doesn't.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

You know?

Jill James:

And those octopus arms are not ever going away in this field because I don't think we're ever done learning. There's always more to learn, so I think that's good. Don't feel like you've ever arrived.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah.

Jill James:

I've been at this 28 years and I feel like, gosh, I still have so much more to learn. Nadia, you mentioned the OSHA 511 course, and for anyone who's listening who's like, "Oh, I wonder what she's talking about?" Do you want to talk a little bit more about that? And I'm guessing you found it at an OSHA training center?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes. Of course. So, it is a class on how to interpret the standards, and I took the one specifically for general industry, so how to find information, how to find basically the categories and the subtopics that are applicable and how to read the book. So it doesn't teach you, okay, what are all of the rules for the workplace, but it will teach you how to interpret when a rule might say, okay, you shall versus you should. So you read something, okay, you shall means this is not optional, or if you should versus, okay, yes, you must, or you may. And so before, if I read that, I would've never considered the difference between you may do this or you must do this, and so, yeah, I took that class. I found it online, and then they had some in-person and some online options, but it was through the UT Arlington School of Development, and so they were just coming in through Houston for four or five days, and I was like, "Yes, I want to do that." I like to be there in class and being able to ask questions. So, I did that and it was really amazing, and also it helped give me so much peace of mind because I was the youngest professional there, so I felt so behind and I was thinking like, "Oh, everyone has this class right out the gate." And then I was like, "Oh, yeah, I'm going on three years in the industry," and people were there that had been safety professionals for six years, 10 years, 15 years, and I was like, "Oh, okay. I'm not doing so bad."

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Yes. So the 511 class, so what you're talking about are the OSHA Training Institutes, and so anyone listening who's like, "How do I find that?" You can go to OSHA's website, the OSHA.gov and search for OTI, OSHA Training Institute, and they're strategically placed around the country, often in community college settings, which it sounds like, Nadia, yours was in a college setting of kind of a pop-up where the class was offered.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Mm-hmm.

Jill James:

Yeah. And so you can find those courses all over the country. That was wonderful. Having a good standards class and knowing the difference between shall and should. That's gold.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

The class was super helpful, not just in what I learned bookwise, but the people that I met. I still have those connections and I've actually been able to call or text a few of them since the class has been over to ask, "Hey, how do you do this?"

Jill James:

Yeah. That's a way to continue your education for sure. You had mentioned earlier about the history of where some of these things came from and that the history of workplace health and safety does predate OSHA. You know, OSHA's 52 years old now, and there were efforts afoot before OSHA happened, and you're right. Your instructor was right. A lot of the laws were written in blood. Absolutely right. I've written the law myself, also written in blood. But there is interestingly enough, and I'll remind our listening audience, there is a historian for workplace health and safety. His name is Mark Catlin. He's been a guest on this show, I think three times, and he has a YouTube channel where he curates information that he finds in the national archives about occupational health and safety and its place in history.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

That's so neat.

Jill James:

It is, right? Like there's an actual historian.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

That's really cool and it reminds me how diverse this field is and how deep you can go. I mean, it's really amazing. I think, and I don't know if it's true, but one of... I was trying to find some safety fun facts to open up a presentation with, and it was like they had used a sheep's bladder for some kind of, I don't even know if the word, like if it was a respirator. They were using, they were making PPE out of animal skins and animal parts, and I was like, what? And it just goes back so far. You can cut that out if you want to. It's so random.

Jill James:

No, it's not random. That's great. You know what? Finding ways when you're training people and you're trying to teach people in an organization in ways that are going to engage them, this is important, and sometimes that means digging in the way back machine. I was doing a mercury abatement project for a different, an employer I worked for a bunch of years ago in the medical industry where we were trying to get rid of all the mercury in this clinic setting, and people are like, "Oh, I love my mercury containing sphygmomanometer to take blood pressures." And I'm like, "Yeah, but we spilled it twice and it's a neurotoxin," and they're like, "Eh." You know?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Mm-hmm.

Jill James:

Like how do you get people's attention?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah.

Jill James:

And so I dug into history a little bit and discovered that mercury was something that was used medicinally in the way back machine to try to calm people's upset stomachs, and so President Lincoln took something called blue mass pills. That's what they were called. Lewis and Clark took these mercury containing pills. And since mercury is an element and it can neither be created or destroyed, how do you think we found where Lewis and Clark went on their travels? We followed, uh-huh, essentially their excrement. Where were Lewis and Clark? Because that mercury, those mercury droppings, literally, they were putting into the earth while they were traveling, they were able to follow their trail.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

My jaw is on the floor.

Jill James:

Right? Right? And so that's the story I led with in this mercury abatement thing where like, you know, you spill this stuff, it's not going anywhere, and this is a bad deal and it's a neurotoxin. Anyway, so that story sticks in my head, and so I think being able to find those things in our work is important, especially when we're trying to make a point.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yes, that's phenomenal, and that just attests to the creativity and storytelling skills that we learn to just really exercise as safety professionals. Because, yeah, no one's going to forget that at all.

Jill James:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

No, that's wonderful.

Jill James:

It's stuck in my head for sure.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Yeah.

Jill James:

Oh, so Nadia. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Oh, I was going to say now I remembered. It was a face mask out of the sheep's bladder, not a respirator, obviously because you can't respirate-

Jill James:

Sure, it wouldn't have been able to-

Nadia Ullah Morin:

... but that's just what I meant. Mm-hmm.

Jill James:

Yeah. Uh-huh.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Go ahead.

Jill James:

Yeah. We've come a long way. We've come a long way. So Nadia, as we're rounding out our time together today, what are you thinking about for the future? You're three years into this career. You said one of your mentors asked you, "Where do you want to be?" Is that something you're still thinking about or you're like, "I'm good where I'm at right now"?

Nadia Ullah Morin:

So I am still thinking about that, and I love health and safety, and I'm very happy with where I am, and I'd be okay with continuing to build safety programs for other companies. I think it's very needed and valuable. But I do consider now that I have... I consider my career of three years, it was a bootcamp. It was like I lived a lifetime in this three years being here. But I think like, okay, now that I have created a department from scratch by myself, I mean, definitely with the help of my colleagues and with management, but truly leading and pushing with like a standalone spirit. Now I think, what else can I do? How can I widen my impact and how can I exercise those skills in ways that can create more value? And so I think about, like I have written policies and procedures and training programs, and so what can I do with that where it's not just benefiting one company at a time, but possibly policy research, policy writing, program development on a grander scale? It's inspiring to me, especially I love how we talk about history of health and safety because then we think about where we are now and what does the future look like? Because we're creating it now. It goes back to my admiration for science and innovation and research, because I think that is such a compassionate thing to do for your future. It's like, I'm not just practicing for the here and now to keep my everyday employees safe, but I'm practicing because I'm helping create something sustainable for the next generation. Or how can they learn from the mistakes we're making now, just like how now we're benefiting from all of the things that unfortunately people had to experience in the past? Yeah. I just really consider. I think as long as I continue to ask myself like, how can I create value? How can I be truthful and transparent and encouraging in a workplace, then I feel that no matter what trajectory I take with health and safety, whether it's policy writing or program management, that it's going to be the right step for me. I'm not too worried about what I'll do next because I'm really enjoying just everything I'm learning day-to-day.

Jill James:

Beautiful. Well said, and a perfect way to end our conversation today. Nadia, you are well on your way, and you are certainly contributing to the greater good.

Nadia Ullah Morin:

Thank you so much Jill and HSI team for having me today. This has just been such an amazing journey with you and talking and exploring all facets of health and safety, and I'm so excited to just keep taking all of these inspirational ideas back to my workplace, but I've so much gratitude for you, Jill. Thank you so much.

Jill James:

You're so welcome. You're so welcome, Nadia. And thank you all for spending your time listening today, and more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good, making sure your workers, including your temporary workers, make it home safe every day. If you aren't subscribed and want to hear past or future episodes, you can subscribe on iTunes, the Apple podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more EHS professionals like Nadia and I. Special thanks to Naim Juraisi and Amy Norton, our podcast producers, and until next time, thanks for listening.